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just a second: a jump, little children fandom podcast

transcript: episode 7

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["Sweet Emotion" by Aerosmith plays briefly then starts to fade]

Anne: Hi, I'm Anne.
Melanie: And I'm Melanie.
A: And you're listening to Just a Second: A Jump, Little Children fandom podcast.
M: Where the topical discussion [laughter] well damn!
A: Oh my god, that was [laughter] let's leave it!
M: Yeah, let's! Where the topical discussion is beyond belief! There.
A: There.
M: That would have bothered me if I didn't say it completely.
A: It would have bothered you for the rest of the call.
M: For the rest of my life!
A: Life! So our last episode was about religion and this, I think, I have a feeling like I should have taken longer to really plan out what's going to be in this one but it's primarily going to be about emotions as related to concerts and particularly Jump, Little Children concerts if we can manage to do that. [laughter]
M: Try to remember this is a Jump, Little Children fandom podcast.
A: I honestly will make an effort this time. So the fact that we now have tickets that have gone on sale for a December tour is very exciting. And I remember commenting on Facebook, I was like, "It's only four months ‘til my next Jump show!" And someone said that seems like a long time from now and I'm like, look, that's not my point! [laughter] My point is it's four months. That's a third of a year. Oh, that is a long time! Well, anyway!
M: That does sound like a long time when you put it that way!
A: It didn't seem that way when I wrote the post. But a lot of people had various emotions and intense anxiety and excitement about getting these tickets cuz everyone was afraid they would immediately sell out. And I think, my understanding is everything's selling pretty well and I think it was, in part, I think part of this way this was planned, and I have a poor sense of time sometimes so I can't remember for sure how it's been done for previous shows, but it seems like last year it was a little closer to December when the tickets went on sale. I don't know if I'm remembering that accurately.
M: That seems like, yeah, it seemed like it was closer.
A: Yeah.
M: Cuz I remember thinking, oh this may not be enough notice.
A: Yeah cuz that's one thing people need more time to plan and get time off work and plan other things and book flights and book hotels. I remember, I don't know if it was last year or the year before, I was looking at Dock Street dates in comparison to when tickets went on sale I thought, wow this is really short notice. Then I realized that looking back at some records I have that it was something like November when the tickets went on sale! And it was pretty routine. Like, wow that doesn't give us much time. But of course at that point people were pretty used to doing this every year and most people were college students or just out of college anyway so it made things a little easier to plan. Now people sometimes still kind of act surprised which I don't understand. And like they're surprised there are shows in December. I'm like, yeah they've been trying to do that since 2015. But you know, not to have an attitude about it or anything.
M: But you never know.
A: Yeah, I mean...
M: Until they say it. You just assume.
A: And these are, you know we had a little tour in May, which seems like a long time ago for some reason.
M: Yeah.
A: So it sort of seems like what they're trying to do is make as many dates as possible but sort of have us understand that it's not going to be, there's not going to be that frequency of touring that there was back in the day because that's simply not how it's going to work anymore. So, that's an interesting thing to grapple with cuz I was thinking earlier today that back in 1999 or 2000 I would sort of think about, there's always going to be a Jump show. You just don't really think about there's going to be a time when there are no Jump shows. There's going to be a hiatus. Like, we didn't really think about stuff like that.
M: Yeah I feel like back when they were touring, like all the time, there was less this intensity whenever—cuz you never had this sort of like, "Oh, no, tickets are going on sale at this time! Oh, I better take time..."
A: I did!
M: For every show?
A: I freaked out over Dock Street tickets.
M: Oh, Dock Street! Sure! Dock Street, but not like, you know.
A: Oh, no, cuz we didn't think, oh such and such is going to sell out.
M: Yeah.
A: Because we, you know. I would sort of have anxiety about when to get in line. [laughter]
M: Oh yeah.
A: I would still do that even though that's kind of stupid now. [laughs]
M: Oh, I still do that. I'm like, oh no I'm going to get there too early! But then people will already be there.
A: Yeah
M: But [it] used to be back in the day people were, sometimes people were already there. And now it's like you know everyone works.
A: Right.
M: Has kids, has responsibilities.
A: There's been a couple...
M: Can't show up at like 4 P.M.
A: Yeah, and of course for a little while there were the VIP things where people would show up early for that. But it's interesting though because there was so—I think the band is still kind of surprised by the high emotion that exists around making sure we've got tickets. Or "I was devastated because I couldn't go to such-and-such." Cuz I remember, I think it was 2000, I wasn't able to go to Dock Street because I was, I have an anxiety thing where I get sick to my stomach and I can't remember exactly how it went for this but I didn't feel well enough to go with the people that were going to continue to drive on to Dock Street. And that sort of thing was really exasperating for me because I frequently have travel base anxiety like that. I've managed to do pretty well with it in recent years just because it doesn't, you have to sort of process the fact that it doesn't really do you any good. It's not going to change anything. Like you're not helping so it's, you're not helping yourself by freaking out. But that's just sort of my natural reaction to, in anticipation of going somewhere. I'm like, "oh God I'm going somewhere, ugh." And it's not too bad but it really does require you to really have to sit down and say freaking out like this isn't doing me any good. But long story short, I wasn't able to go to that Dock Street. And I was, as they say, devastated cuz I'm, you know, whatever 20-21-22. I don't even remember. No one said there would be math! No but I was just a total wreck about it and I was crying about it and whatever. And it sort of like well, in the scheme of things you didn't go to a show so what's, like what's the big deal? But I think even now there'd be people who would be devastated about not being able to go to a show they had really looked forward to. And even if everybody's around 40 now you're not going to be freaking out the same way as you would if you were 20, but you know it's still upsetting. And I think that if you haven't experienced that or maybe if you're in the band, you're like, you can't really relate to how that feels. It's more than just something like FOMO, fear of missing out, it's like you know I should be there.
M: There was a show, I think it was last, two Aprils ago I think. Cuz I have been to Jump shows where, and this was mostly during the, before the hiatus.
A: Yeah.
M: And towards the end where there were some Jump shows where I was like, oh that was nice but I didn't have that you know I'm excited euphoria.
A: Oh yeah, before the hiatus?
M: Yeah, before the hiatus. So at this show two Aprils ago I remember just having this feeling of supreme elation [laughs] and making a promise to myself and to them in my head during the show that I would always go and see them if they were touring.
A: Yeah!
M: I was like, crying during the show, during this moment. And I was like, "I'm always going to go see them." [laughs]
A: Yeah, I know. Wait, what show was that after? Like, when was that?
M: It was two, I think it was in April. It was in early spring.
A: Ok.
M: Like, two years ago.
A: So, post hiatus?
M: It was last year.
A: Ok, so it was after 2015.
M: Was it last year? I don't know. It was yeah, it was after 2015.
A: Yeah.
M: It was after all of that. But they did a show here in Greenville and it was the first show back in Greenville I think that they had done.
A: Oh yeah!
M: And I was there and I was just so happy and it was just this moment where I'm like, I'm always going to go see them. Always. [laughter]
A: Aw, that's adorable! I know I've mentioned this before but post hiatus the first show afterward it was so strange because I was in a sort of an area of the audience that I usually had been in and there they were and there were people that I knew and it was just like 10 years before. It was just, and that's the feeling that you just cannot get it really anywhere else. And of course they're coming back to Greenville in December and I'm going to be going to that show that happens to be on my birthday. So I'm pretty excited about that because that will be my first show since May. [laughter] That's another thing too because we don't take for granted like we did you know 20 years ago there's going to be another tour, they're going to come back to so and so. It does make the remaining shows that much more special. Like I'm going to four shows in December and that might seem like a lot to some people but I know other people who are trying to go to all the shows. That's simply out of most people's budgets and time availability but you sort of do have this feeling of you know, I really want to go to as many shows as I can but you have to accept that that's just not going to be possible to go to all of them. It's probably not a good idea cuz you might end up getting burned out. Cuz that used to be a thing too where like, I'm burned out, this isn't really doing it for me right now; I need a break. Which is also very real part of managing your emotions! Knowing when to back off a bit. Cuz I was I was thinking too, you know some people listen to Jump all the time or they listened to them all through the hiatus. I know I've mentioned this before too but I would go a really long time without listening to them at all, in part because it really brought back to me, when I did listen to them, it really made me realize and understand how much I love them and how important they were to me. Whereas I think if I just listened to them constantly all the time it wouldn't seem that special.
M: Yeah.
A: So, sort of as we've touched on before making yourself understand how special it is to see them or to hear something new with a greater appreciation looking back than you might have had at the time. Emotions! [laughter] And now I think there's an added element of there's not that many shows this year, there's not that many necessarily that many shows remaining period, which people don't really like to think about. But that's a factor as well that wasn't necessarily one back then. And people are also having to factor in like we've already touched on, I've got work, the kids are doing such and such, or I've already got a family trip planned, etcetera, etcetera. Or these are no longer the days where you're going to drive for 10 hours, you're more likely to fly, and you know, I can't book a flight to whatever, whatever. There's just more factors coming in and it changes your experience of going to these shows but at the same time there's other things you maybe have a better handle on or you're able to process your feelings about what's happening. But at the same time there is still some of that old magic, if you will, that I guess we've always experienced. I don't know, by magic there's the usual feeling of we're going to the show, today is the day of the show, you're excited about you know, it's just starting or whatever and all this. Or you've seen people that you know. But there's also after the show; experiences vary. Sometimes after the show you can be totally euphoric and be really happy with it and later on maybe you have a post-concert crash which is a lot like con drop where you've been experiencing these intense emotions and now you're removed from that situation entirely and naturally you sort of crash. Which is annoying. That hasn't really happened to me that often but I was thinking there is sort of like when I saw Ringo the other day I never experienced really a concert high at that show. it was fun and there were a lot of aspects of it that I enjoyed but I never had that connection where I was like, I mean it was pretty exciting during "I Wanna Be Your Man" and "Boys" and that was exciting stuff because you know it was Beatles stuff. But I never quite had that feeling "woo" and I thought to myself this is part of my reverse seasonal depression? [laughter] I thought, no cuz it was really hot when I went to the Paul McCartney show but on the other hand maybe if I hadn't been so, I mean cuz that's what I have. I have reverse seasonal affective disorder or whatever. Like, winter doesn't bother me at all, like early darkness doesn't bother me at all, gloom, it has to be a lot of gloom for it to bother me but I do not like summer. I do not like it when it's light until 9 o'clock at night. You're not like waking up and it's already light outside. I do not like hot weather, sunny weather. I do not like any of that! It sort of makes me feel like I'm trudging through this part of the year. Like trudging through it and waiting for it to be over and like, let's just get through this friggin' summer. So I didn't find it that enjoyable traveling in hot weather cuz there's really nothing you can do about it though. There's literally nothing you can do. You just have to wait for it to be over. And I thought you know if this has been at a different time of the year maybe it would feel more festive and I would feel just overall more excited about going. I don't know. It was weird or maybe it was just normal depression. [laughs] I don't regret going but I did not have that concert euphoria.
M: Or maybe it's just Ringo. [laughter]
A: Now, now!
M: That sounded mean. I love Ringo! I love Ringo, but when you see, as opposed to...
A: You know, what's-his-name.
M: What's-his-name! You know it's not, you're not going to have the same level.
A: Well, yeah, some people seemed really into it though. There was some like hardcore Ringo stans there.
M: Well, they're Ringo girls or...
A: Yeah, they're Ringo stans.
M: Ringo people.
A: Ringo people! [laughter] But yeah, it's like even my Lyft driver was like, well yeah I mean you know it's Ringo. [laughter] My Lyft driver said that he had seen Elton John, Paul McCartney, and Stevie Wonder and he said those were like his top that he has to compare everyone else to. And those are hard acts to follow. [laughs] Literally. But it just, I don't know. I sort of felt subdued afterward cuz I was just like, well that was cool. And it sucks when you're kind of wanting to have that feeling and then you don't.
M: Yeah.
A: And sort of related to that, I guess, is after Jump shows you can usually rely on Jump shows to have at least a pretty steady baseline of that concert euphoria. Some shows are more eventful than others. [laughter] But I was going to say as part of the emotion management that I've learned over the years, the emotion management after Jump shows, if something really cool happens—and I think I've said this before—something cool happens you have to know when to leave so that you don't destroy the cool thing that happened by doing something stupid. Like, alright, I gotta leave on a high note. Know when to hold'em, know when to fold'em, know when to walk away and know when to run. [laughs] I think that's the second time I've quoted that on this podcast. But it's true. Cuz that has happened to me where I push my luck. I push my luck and then I ended up saying something stupid to somebody and that's what I remember about the show, is the time I said something stupid.
M: Yeah, I've had a few of those. [laughter]
A: Like, you remember for years afterward.
M: Yeah.
A: Oh God!
M: Yeah, I was just thinking about one this week. I'm not going to say what it was but it was just weird and yeah. [laughs]
A: Like, why did I say that?
M: Why did I say that?
A: When we were talking to Matt we asked him if they remember when we say stupid things. And he was like, we don't remember anything you guys say! [laughter] No, I'm exaggerating but I was kind of surprised but he was, "we don't remember what we say, we don't remember what you say." [laughs]
M: They don't remember anything!
A: It's all a blur at this point. Which, I was also thinking earlier sort of related to that about how uncomfortable it must be being sort of a repository or a reflector of people's emotions. Even with their relatively, I don't know, I mean at this stage we're all grown up, if you will, but there is still a little of that where people are projecting their excitement onto you or they're really wrapped up in "what are you planning to do" or what songs are coming out and what's your tour going to be like and are you going to choose to do this and that? And just to have people invested in that and invest in you like that must be really strange.
M: Yeah. A lot of pressure.
A: Yeah! It's a lot of pressure and not everybody likes that. Because you sort of have to, for your own integrity, you have to be like, I need to do what I want. But at the same time if your audience doesn't like that, then what are you even doing I guess?
M: Yeah, it's a balance, I think, that most bands have to strike.
A: Yeah but I think they may be attribute a little too much antagonism to us sometimes.
M: Maybe.
A: At this point, at least, we're pretty much going to put up with and/or enjoy anything they do.
M: Yeah.
A: Cuz we're sort of mellowed out at this point, for one. And for another, they, I want them to be able to do what they want to do and that seems to be what is happening right now, so I'm cool with it. I made a remark where they posted a demo and I thought it was paced a little too fast and I had a feeling people were miffed at me and I'm like, I think it was paced too fast, I'm allowed to think that. [laughter] I maybe shouldn't have said it but I'm not trying to be mean. It was, I mean it's just as well that it was a demo that didn't get onto a record as far as I'm concerned. I love that song. It was "Hang It On the Wall" which I love. As a live experience that's an amazing song but I thought the demo was paced too slow so sue.
M: Yeah, I hadn't heard it such a long time that I don't know how fast it's supposed to be. I was just like, oh my God "Hang It On the Wall", wow.
A: Yeah I really like that show because, that song rather, not that show. I really like that song because it's a really great example of Jay really just belting it out.
M: Yeah, Hollerin' Jay.
A: Yes! Hollerin' Jay. And I love that because as long as we're talking about emotion I think that's a really great emotional listening catharsis, hearing Jay just hollerin'.
M: Oh, yeah! Definitely!
A: I always prefer that over the the whispery songs, if you will. The whispery songs, there's just not as much of a listener's catharsis with that. There's just not! And I realize he's less inclined to do that, or not necessarily realize but I am guessing he's less inclined to do that as time goes on. But I really enjoyed it.
M: Well it's probably rough on his voice too.
A: Oh, I was trying to be nice. [laughter]
M: Well, you know, singers gotta...
A: Now that he's old, he doesn't like to yell.
M: Well, not even that he's old, it's just...
A: Yeah, I know!
M: You know, it's something you think about as a singer.
A: I mean, sometimes you could tell it was straining his voice back in the day but I like that. That's neat. [laughter]
A: I sound like a masochist. Or a sadist.
M: It's so neat when he strains his voice.
A: I'm such a sadist. I like when he strains his voice yelling. [laughs]
M: Really sells that emotion. When he strains it.
A: Yeah! Well, yeah, seriously.
M: Yeah!
A: In all seriousness. But that's reminding me too, of what I was planning to actually mention at the top of the show but did not. The show, like this is a radio show. But the top of the episode I wanted to mention, I think first of all to go ahead and mention it since it doesn't necessarily have that much to do with the rest of the topic, is a podcast that we came across and you have listened to all the episodes so far. I've listened to I think half of them. And would you like to talk about that or do you want me to talk about it.
M: Sure. It's the, what is it called? I keep wanting to call it by the acronym. What do the letters stand for? Another Kind of...
A: Another Kind of Mind.
M: Yeah, Another Kind of Mind podcast. It's about the Beatles and it's offering a kind of different viewpoint than what is the, usually the established narrative that goes on around the Beatles. Like John being you know the sacred martyr. [laughs]
A: Yeah there was actually, I was watching a[n] interview with Paul where she, the person interviewing him actually said, "you can't possibly compete with the martyr genius." And he was sort of like, excuse the fuck out of you.
M: Yeah! [laughter] He was like, one day I'll die and I'll have my day. [laughs]
A: Yeah. She was really quite rude. He was, at one point he mocked her accent which I think went over her head. I was like wow, did he really just make fun of, ok, ok. But anyway, yeah, let's see, you've listened to them all, and which one have you liked the best?
M: I loved the Ringo episode.
A: Yeah, that was fun.
M: And they did a Yoko episode and I thought it was really well-balanced and nuanced and not the usual like, oh Yoko, she's you know, Yoko, ugh.
A: It seems like a lot of people either worship her and think she's a genius and can't be criticized or they're like she's the worst thing that's ever happened to the history of the world.
M: Yeah, this one had a balance. A nice balance.
A: The Ringo episode had a bit in it that I thought was really funny where they were talking about Ringo's sex appeal if you will. And they said you know it'll be like straight guys talking about which is the most attractive Beatle, please don't mansplain who the sexiest Beatle is. Please leave us one thing. Jesus Christ! [laughter] And of course the sexiest Beatle is actually George so we've established that. But anyway, yeah so it's a fun podcast because it's basically a women's perspective on the Beatles because mostly it's like male Beatles nerds. I mean that's the vast, vast majority of talk about Beatles is male Beatles nerds. You know that's just how it is.
M: Yeah, all the books are by men.
A: Yeah, it's very factually based. Factually based, you know it's stuff like this is take 17 of 50 takes or whatever and I was thinking that today if you're telling me it's take number whatever that doesn't mean anything unless you're saying they did so many fucking take that day because George was about to beat Paul's head in with his guitar because whatever whatever. That's what makes it interesting. Is that an unusual number of takes? We need the context of that. Or this was done on such and such a day, the day after blah blah. I want more of a context. Not just reeling off statistics. So that's a fun podcast and I'm looking forward to listening to the rest of it. But what was interesting, and you touched on this, in the first two particularly I think the second after the intro episode is when they talked about the mythology behind Lennon and McCartney. And not to get too into that for this podcast, but I've always thought you know people obviously have different ideas about who John and Paul are and it turns out a lot of that is just wrong.
M: Yeah.
A: So it's fascinating trying to pull at that and figure out why did people conclude something that's pretty much the opposite of reality? And tied into that as well is there's this idea that you can, which reminds me of something Cynthia Lennon said. She was reading somebody's book about John and/or the Beatles, she said, "well the facts are right but the emotions are wrong." Which was an interesting remark to make because I think a lot of people overly rely on statistics and technical facts without thinking about as human beings you can do something that's completely in opposition to what people would expect from you, you can do something that is completely different from what you did the day before because humans are full of contradictions and irrational emotions and you can't iron that all out with, oh, this happened on such-and-such date and in the blah blah Studios. And you know okay. I think there is a tendency to overly rely on technical details and dismiss the emotion and that leads me to a mention of a book that I've been really excited about called Fangirls: Scenes From Modern Music Culture. It's by Hannah Ewans who is British so it's a British book and it took a little while for me to actually get it. And you said that you had ordered it?
M: Yeah.
A: Yeah, and Amanda Mae has ordered it as well, I think, and she's expecting it. We might have a book club for it which should be fun. But I've already started reading it. I'm like 76 pages into it and I skipped ahead a little bit as well. [laughs] And it's a really pretty book so I was hesitant to mark it up and like fold dog ears on the pages to marks some stuff in here. But it's interesting she's got it divided—she's a writer for Vice I believe— and yeah, so this is sort of like a series of articles in many ways. And she talks about in one chapter, she's a My Chemical Romance fan, and she talks about how there was sort of a moral panic about, oh everyone who listens to My Chemical Romance is committing suicide and they're all getting this contagious depression cuz they're all listening to these lyrics. And that's always been a theme, is "oh the youth are listening to blah blah music and they're all joining Satanic cults and killing themselves," and all of this stuff. Cuz for thousands of years that's been like, oh look what the kids are doing. And the fact as she sees it, one thing that's kind of funny is she's like, way back in the 2000s, and I'm like really? [laughter] All the way back in 2008, okay. 2008 was, yeah but anyway. She's like, before the internet really existed in 2008. [laughter] Not really!
M: Hey my Facebook profile is older than 2008.
A: I know, it's so weird. It's so weird reading this perspective. But in this chapter about My Chemical Romance fans they're talking about how actually it's the opposite. They actually found, in the My Chemical Romance community, other people who suffered from teenage depression and teenage depressive episodes just like they did. And they could commiserate over this. And they found they almost started idol worshipping the lyrics writers, who were openly admitting to having gone through these depressive periods and episodes and having to take medication and all these things. And just talking about it was apparently a very—also I will say she's British so the way she was writing it, she was basically saying no one ever talked about depression in Britain until 2008. [laughs] Maybe that's true!
M: Well, it's true! It's true, my husband is from the UK and it's not something that's been talked about until very recently.
A: Then that reinforces what I was, you know at first I was like, ahh, then I was like, oh ok, they're British. [laughter] British, that's why they...but it was basically talking about a catharsis and a reaction to, basically saying we listen to this music because it allows us to work through these feelings instead of squashing there or hiding them.
M: Right.
A: If that's what you want to do. You can work through them and someone else will—she quoted an expert saying that humans are built to sometimes have distractions. Sometimes you're going through something and you need to have a fun distraction for your brain. You can't simply trudge through horrible stuff all the time. So it's sort of like now through listening to music and through communicating with other people who listen to the same music you can either have a fun, distracting time where you're altogether sort of like taking a break to enjoy something. Or, hey, these people feel the same way I do and we're all feeling really shitty right now so here we are working through that together. And it's interesting because she is primarily talking about teenage girls in this book but of course the people in My Chemical Romance are dudes who are also admitting to having depression. So that's sort of interesting just watching that. It's a fun book. Not always though, because there is a chapter about the ISIS bombing of the Ariana Grande concert. And it's will run the gamut from very serious, addressing that how that was a targeting of women and girl fans to a One Direction documentary where they talk to a scientist who basically concluded they're just excited and their brain chemistry is lighting up and they're having fun. And the girls are like, yes, we're just fun, we're not crazy. [laughter] We are, come on, leave us alone. We're just having fun. It's not that serious.
M: Amazing that they had to have a scientist. [laughs]
A: Well, that's always been a point of concern. Hand in hand with "the youth are listening to music and cutting themselves" it's "oh, the girls are getting out of hand here with their sexual excitement, what's wrong with them? They need to get married and have babies." Cuz that was really thought to be the science. I was reading an article about women's suffrage where it was, you know, women have to have babies to occupy their uteruses otherwise they need to fill their uteruses with other stuff? And I'm like, that's not very scientific. And the other stuff is listening to music? I don't know. I don't know if you're just trying to say women just need to have babies. You can just say that part. You don't have to come up with all this other nonsense.
M: Give me this mental image of stuffing uteruses with stuff. [laughs]
A: Well, otherwise they wander around your body and you get hysterical.
M: Oh.
A: See?
M: Wow.
A: They have to be constantly filled with babies or they will wander around and spray music everywhere? [laughter]
M: Sounds legit. Sound totally legit.
A: And that's bad, so come on everybody! Get married and have babies. Cuz if you get married babies that means you can't have fun, right? That's what that means. That's how that works. It's like, just leave us alone! But there's a lot of money to be made in writing books and articles and pamphlets about how terrible it is. How terrible it is when women listen to music. Cuz they can't do it right. We can't do it right.
M: Nope, first of all it makes us act in completely outrageous ways.
A: Screaming.
M: And we don't do it right, so.
A: Yeah. We can't listen to the music right. Now I'm going to look something up in this book. It's sort of hard to pull it out of context but this was her chapter that basically starts out talking about the girls who will reply—well, actually it's not just girls, it's everybody—who will reply to famous people's Instagrams and Twitters where the first reply is "Daddy." [laughter] So she refers to them as the Daddy Commenters. So it starts out like that and it gets into more serious, where she's like, why does everybody do this? So it's sort of like explaining a meme to somebody, which doesn't quite work. But she's pretty young herself so she knows that. But she basically says, and thought this was a good sentence, "in my internal world I felt that appreciating music and appreciating the fantasy of the musician could sit comfortably beside each other, but I knew that one was seen to nullify the other outside of it." So, yeah, it's like you can't really, you have to be the right kind of fan, you have to be, you have to like them for the music. [laughter] And only the music, thank you very much! That's the law.
M: Well, I enjoy breaking the law, so.
A: Breaking the law, breaking the law. [laughter] But I think on a more serious, I was thinking of the episode as being, having more serious boundaries. Like it being about the policing of emotions. Which is basically what that is. Saying you're not doing this correctly, you're not being a fan correctly, or you're being crazy and constantly having this monitor in your mind like watching how you are presenting yourself as a fan. Like, are you sounding knowledgeable enough? Are you sounding neutral enough so that you're not biased, cuz God forbid you be biased. Are you being detail-oriented and unemotional and unbiased enough to have enough credit. Even if you want to break the law and not be like that there's still the presence of that awareness of that being the standard.
M: Yeah I wonder how much, what the frequency is, what the level of this is regarding versus how a male fan experiences concert emotions and how a female fan. Like I just want to know if these guys feel like they need to hold it back too.
A: Yeah I don't know I was talking in line at Ringo to a guy from Chicago who had seen Paul a ton of times and I'm sure seen Ringo a ton of times as well. And he was really happy and excited to be there but you know he was reeling off facts like guys to do. [laughter] And it was, I've always thought seeing other people at shows, no matter what show it is, if they are happy and seem into it I can just relate to that on that level so it's fine. But when I'm talking to other women fans there's another level that makes things a little more entertaining for me. Because you know I don't have to worry, oh I saw blah blah 18 times. [laughter] Like, ok.
M: Yeah, you can get to the real meat of the stuff!
A: Yeah, you know the important things like who do you want to bang? [laughter]
M: Exactly
A: And ok, on that point. On that point, now listen. One thing that I find interesting is a lot of the time there is a cultural assumption that dudes join bands and start playing music to get chicks; but at the same time the chicks they get, get all this opprobrium, like, oh my god, I can't believe you slept with the guys who want you to sleep with them. [laughter] Oh my god! What an outrage! Like, it takes two to tango, folks. [laughs] I guess that just continues to prove the thesis of whatever the women do they're doing at the wrong way. But I thought that was a really interesting little sentence there where she says she feels inside that it's perfectly fine to appreciate the music and to appreciate the actual musicians at the same time, but there is this sort of feeling that you're not supposed to do that.
M: But who made that? Who decided that?
A: You know, the serious music fans. The real fans. The real fans who can objectively evaluate music on its merits. [laughs]
M: Well I'm going to say right here now, if you like the music you're a real fan! [laughs] That's my controversial opinion! If you like the music that's enough. You're a real fan.
A: Yeah, that's really all you have to do. I do find it interesting that like I said there is that sort of paradox where girls aren't seen as real fans or doing fandom properly because they're doing the things that the male artists want them to do. [laughs] Like, what do you think is happening here? Not all male artists! But it really does feel like you kind of have to do that. You kind of have to prove yourself or you have to make a point of not doing that because fuck you. [laughs] But that's the thing too, you can easily do both of those things. There's not a conflict.
M: No.
A: Any idea that there is a conflict is a false choice. If anything they enhance each other and I think it's a conspiracy theory! No, I think it's awfully convenient to say that these things that go together perfectly well, if not completely naturally, are somehow diametrically opposed and cancel each other out. Which they do not. But that's very convenient that you want to take away the fun by making them incompatible. If that makes sense. Does that make even make sense?
M: It does make sense.
A: Cuz there's no reason to pretend like these are two opposing concepts. Cuz they're not. It's completely made-up concept.
M: I feel like a whole lot more people would just have more fun if we just embraced that these two things can coexist.
A: I think the objection that then gets introduced is, oh, you're objectifying them. Well first of all, you don't understand what objectifying actually is. Objectifying is not just finding someone attractive. Objectifying is literally taking disembodied body parts and portraying those and not portraying a person, not portraying an individual. What we're talking about is very much about the individual. And it's not objectifying nor is it degrading, unless you decided to cast it as that for some reason. But I just don't see why it's such a big deal. It's fun. [laughs]
M: Yeah. So, do we want to give a sign off or anything?
A: What would our sign-off be?
M: A final thought. [laughs]
A: Emotions. [laughter] I already did a final thought. Emotions.
M: Emotions. They're good.
A: Emotions, have some today!
M: Yeah, emotions, have some today. They're good. If we don't embrace our emotions then [laughter] they will embrace us? I don't know.
A: I was going to say, I was like that doesn't make any sense!
M: It's good to have emotions.
A: It is good to have emotions and sometimes you can have...
M: And I think in terms of music and any art, if it doesn't really evoke any emotions then they're doing it wrong.
A: Yeah, what are we even doing here?
M: They're doing it wrong, not us!
A: [laughs] They're doing it wrong. Yeah, it's like you're supposed to be evoking emotions then you get upset when emotions are evoked. Please.
M: It's just emotions.
A: It's emotions.
M: [laughs] It's just emotions! We have them!
A: Emotions, we have them.
M: And sometimes we can't contain them and it's ok.
A: Yeah, and sometimes that's really only excusable when you are in a group. And you might think, oh, that's just a mob mentality. But it's not quite that. It's like understanding that you're not the only person feeling this emotion.
M: Yes, it's the same as like talking about something with someone and you're like, oh, you too?
A: Yes, that's exactly what it is. Like, there's a little bit in the book Fangirls where she's talking about the rituals and practices around waiting in line before a show, and she mentions that in Brazil fans were camping out for Justin Bieber five months before the Justin Bieber show. Five months!
M: Don't they have school?
A: It's Brazil, I don't even fucking know. But Brazil and Japan are like the most hardcore fan countries.
M: Yeah.
A: Maybe South Korea. Like, way beyond anything that we do. Like, Jump thinks we're intense? Are we camping out for five months? No.
M: No.
A: Thank you very much. But she's talking about everyone has these practices where you keep a watch on whether someone's trying to cut in line, and if someone has to leave the line you hold their space. And if you're sitting out for a long time you start maybe playing card games or doing other sort of things, and you're meeting people and you know you're all there for this common purpose so you all have this understanding between you guys. You're all there for one thing. And I felt that too just walking through the Ringo crowd or the Paul crowd or even at ELO. It's like these people are here for this. And you can observe certain things about them. They're wearing shirts for so-and-so, they're a particular age, they enjoy a particular song. And we're all doing that together and that is something that's sort of hard to describe but it's definitely a thing. And you can see how that would be an attraction, an on going attraction for so many people. Emotions!
M: You get all these people together and it's a collective "oh, you too!"
A: Exactly.
M: All of us together!
A: Someone's wearing a shirt that's like yours and you're like, yeah, we both went to that, we were both at that tour! There's also the we all have something to look forward to. We're marking time in that sense. Like, we're going to be seeing a bunch of people in December again. And that's sort of reassuring and comforting knowing that it's happening again. Maybe this won't be going on for too many years more. We really don't know. But this time it is an anchored point in time that we can all look forward to and plan for and then we'll go through our usual rituals in December and we'll see the people that we see and we'll talk to the folks we talk to and we'll be enacting the ritual once more. [laughter]
M: Yeah, it is comforting.
A: So there is sort of a ritualistic or symbolic feeling. There's another term I'm looking for that I can't quite remember. But you know. As long we can continue to have this, and sometimes I term it nostalgia, but it's not always nostalgia because as we've touched on before they are doing new stuff.
M: Yeah.
A: It's not like they're just playing their old songs over and over. Which I don't think they would have wanted to do anyway. But even as there are new experiences to have there's so much of this is based on familiarity. And yeah, there is that comforting action which is, oh it's Jump show, I know this!
M: Yeah.
A: It's like therapy! [laughs] Not really but a little bit.
M: A little bit! Yeah.
A: Little bit. It's a little bit like therapy.

["Heavenly Feeling" by Thunderbitch plays briefly then fades]