just a second....

just a second: a jump, little children fandom podcast

transcript: episode 5

RSS Feed | Transcript Index

[Depeche Mode's "Personal Jesus" plays briefly then fades out]

Anne: Okay, let's do our thing of which I totally forgot what it was. [laughs]

Melanie: It's ok. It's ok. It can be whatever. [laughs]

A: You can, ok...

M: It doesn't have to be stuffy! [laughs]

A: Yeah, we don't have to do it the same way every time. We can just be like...

M: No, no.

A: Not this time, anyway, cuz we're kinda "ah, ah" [laughs]

M: I think you start with "hi, I'm Anne."

A: I was going to! I was going to! [laughter] Hi, I'm Anne.

M: [crosstalk] ok.

A: Dammit! [laughter] Hi, I'm Anne!

M: [laughs] And I'm Melanie!

A: And you're listening to Just a Second: A Jump, Little Children Fandom Podcast.

M: Where the topical discussion is beyond belief.

A: Ok, last time we had a two-hour discussion with Matt Bivins and we should have the transcript

M: [crosstalk] two!

A: Ew?!

M: Two! Two!

A: Two!

M: Two full hours!

A: I thought you said "ew" and I was like ew?

M: [laughs] Ew, Matt's icky!

A: Ew, Matt Bivins! Yeah it was two hours long and you had heroically put together the transcript for that. And I will have that up but it is also 33 pages long. [laughs]

M: Yeah.

A: So the formatting of that and going through that will take a little while to do but that should be up. Also since then I actually was able to see, and you saw last night you said, the documentary I Used to Be Normal which was on Fuse TV or fuseTV dot net or whatever the address was. And it's about an hour and, what? Is it an hour 20 minutes?

M: An hour, yeah, an hour and 22.

A: Yeah, and it's about, was it three? It's three or four different fangirls.

M: There's four of them.

A: There's four.

M: Yeah.

A: A Beatles fangirl in her 60s, One Direction, let's see, Take That and, God, I'm blanking on the...

M: Backstreet Boys.

A: Backstreet Boys, yes, yes, yes! And it's been a couple weeks since I've actually seen it but I loved them all for different reasons and it's fresher to you than it was to me. But I loved it and I wanted to make everyone watch it even though it's interesting because I could easily see how someone would be like "what the hell is wrong with these people?" [laughter]

M: I think a few of them, towards the end, they were kind of getting like "what the hell is wrong with me?"

A: Yeah! I thought that was really interesting.

M: Yeah.

A: So what did you what did you think about it?

M: I love it. I could identify with all of the feelings that they talked about.

A: Yes, exactly! Like one thing that stuck out to me was the girl who went on the cruise, the Backstreet Boys Cruise, and that was so funny cuz there was like that footage of people chasing after Nick Carter... [laughter]

M: He was swimming!

A: In the water, he's like surrounded by people trying to grab him in the water. Well, not necessarily grab him but you know. They were following him in the water.

M: They were all following him with their phones. It was a weird sight! And he looked...

A: It was weird!

M: He looked...

A: He looked displeased! [laughs]

M: Yeah, I couldn't understand that. I'm like, you're on a cruise with all of these fans and you're not expecting this?

A: Yeah, I mean...

M: I don't understand. I don't know what the boundaries were, you know.

A: I don't know it looked weird. Like I would really not want to be on one of those cruises. And it was funny what the girl said was, you know, she was talking about this in the context of every time you meet them or every time you go to a meet and greet you have to one-up yourself the next time. And she started saying you know "I don't like who I am at these meet and greets. I don't I don't like how I'm acting on the cruise to other people. I don't like this." And that really, that resonated with me. I was like, I know what you mean by that, yeah.

M: Yeah!

A: I've kinda reached a point or reached a point a long time ago where I was like sometimes you're not going to be able to one-up something and just don't try. No when to leave, know when to hold them, know when to fold them, know when to walk away and know when to run. [laughter] There's some things you're not going to be able to top so it's like "alright, I have to leave now." I've told people that. I'm like, "I have to leave now before I fuck something up." [laughter] This amazing thing happened, it's time for me to go.

M: Yeah, there are nights that I've been after a show where I'm like "I think I'm just going to leave."

A: Yeah.

M: Nothing good can happen right now because it just feels, I don't know. It's too soon between times! I don't know.

A: Yeah. That sort of reminds me...

M: That's more often in the old days but...

A: Yeah, that reminds me of Manashi or somebody who said, "Sometimes people go to shows and then leave." Of course, she was talking about you know other bands where you know you don't talk to them afterward, you just leave. [laughs] But I still think of that sometimes and laugh. Sometimes people go to shows and just leave!

M: Yeah.

A: But I liked a lot about what they said in there. They had some insight into, oh, I guess you'd say it was their lack of agency. Like there was the girl with the Turkish parents who was not going to be allowed to go to art school and or go to music school and the Beatles fan whose father did not want her to go to college and did not want her to become a nurse. And I don't know what all else. It was really interesting because they didn't overtly direct you like through an open narration into thinking this or that about them but you had to watch the whole thing to really get the picture. Like, I really didn't relate to this exactly but I thought it was interesting how the Take That fan realized she didn't want whoever that guy was in Take That, she wanted to be like him.

M: Be him!

A: She wanted to be him.

M: Yeah.

A: And I loved how she came across another woman who was also a big Take That fan and they just bonded so totally over that. I thought that was wonderful they ended up together like that.

M: Yeah!

A: That was really cute. That's probably not the norm but I thought that was a really great thing to have happen in this particular documentary. Not that they planned it like that [laughter] it was just cute to see.

M: Yeah.

A: And you know speaking of The Beatles [laughter] if I can intro this. A week before it was about to happen I just so happened to be listening to The Beatles song on Spotify and I thought you know I wonder if Paul McCartney's touring right now. That would be neat. So I looked him up and I saw that the closest date was Greenville and I thought "he's playing in Greenville a week from now. I got to make this happen!" [laughs] Like, I've got to do this. So I did what I had to do and you know even if my—my bosses are really nice and they wouldn't have stopped me but I was like, you know what I'm doing this even if they don't want me to! [laughter] I'll just get fired! No. So this was only a week out so I didn't really have time to look into you know what does Paul McCartney do during shows or anything like. And I didn't really want to look into it too much. I did happen to learn that he plays very long shows. And you know he's been touring many times over the years so a lot of people had already seen him such as you and your mother.

M: Yeah.

A: But I was really super familiar with what he would do and I didn't want to go in with expectations cuz I didn't want to think "oh, I'm so disappointed that he didn't do such and such."

M: Right.

A: And I didn't want to look at it like that so I didn't do a whole lot of pre-show research. So we did, you and I did get to spend some time before and after the show just hanging out and it was interesting to me how it was, you know in some ways all music shows like this are going to be very similar and I really got a kick out of seeing like the girls who were wearing the "I love Paul" shirts. There was obviously there's a very strong pro-Paul contingent, by the process of elimination at this particular show and I thought it was really funny to see you know groups of women in their sixties who are basically act like, you know, me and the people I know! I really got a real kick out of that. But of course also I must point out that I don't really bother going to a lot of concerts in general. I don't really go to big arena shows. I've seen U2 and I saw Radiohead at Stone Mountain but that was a very long time ago and I don't typically do that. I have not seen a lot of really big name acts because it involves for me a lot effort and time that I don't typically spend. Like it's not something where I casually am like, oh I'll go see so-and-so this weekend. I'm not going out every weekend seeing whoever. So, you are much more versed in seeing a larger variety of acts than I am. And I thought that was going to be an interesting experience because I don't really typically do that and this is Paul McCartney! [laughter] And I was really interested in this also from a fangirling experience because it's sort of the ultimate possible fangirling experience, even though you know he's turning 77 this month. In terms of the context of 20th century 21st century fan culture that's pretty monumental and I was really curious about it from a I don't know sort of academic, almost, perspective. Just to see what that would be like being among people you know who are obviously here to see one of the Beatles.

M: Yeah.

A: And I was not anticipating, even though you know you said "I've cried every time I've seen him." How many times have you seen him? This was what time?

M: This was the fourth.

A: And your mother has seen him how many times?

M: I think she's seen him six.

A: Yeah. I think you said that you cried every time you saw him and I thought to myself, sort of in a detached way, I was like, I wonder if I will? And I really wasn't expecting it to be—I mean I kind of knew that it possibly could be but I wasn't really expecting it to be quite as, oh God, because I remember someone saying beforehand that it is you know a life-changing experience. And that is sort of, to a certain extent when you read that beforehand it's like hyperbole. It's like well, yeah, I guess. But I wasn't expecting it to be when you're actually in the moment and the aftermath for it to be that emotionally affecting.

M: Yeah.

A: I kind of knew in a sort of distant way that it would be but to actually experience that is a whole ‘nother thing altogether.

M: Yeah I know every every time I've seen Paul it's never been, it's always the same level of like, excitement. Cuz I've seen a lot of bands and I've seen a lot of bands multiple times and sometimes I'm just like, eh. But with Paul it's just, I don't know how to describe it.

A: Yeah, I don't really either and it's probably, it might be annoying people who have never seen him. You know it was sort of funny, I didn't want to make too big of a deal about it at work [laughs] not be like that person who's always talking about that Paul McCartney show she went to. Cuz you don't want to be like there's that episode of Friends where Phoebe is giving birth.

M: Uh huh.

A: And her obstetrician is this guy who's obsessed with the Fonz from Happy Days. An like every fucking thing he says...

M: oh yeah

A: He relates it back to Arthur Fonzarelli. [laughs] Like, I don't want to be that person.

M: Fifty years from now, "oh that time when I saw Paul it's just like that!" [laughs]

A: Yeah. "One time I saw Paul McCartney." Yeah well, I mean I might be like that about Jump [laughter] I try not to be. But yeah it was quite an experience and I did find myself tearing up several times during the show. But it was funny like the first time it really hit me was like a day or two afterward. Like Adam DeLoach had commented that that was an amazing setlist on my Facebook post about it. So I went back, and by the way it was a 38 song show. It lasted for almost three hours. And I looked at the setlist again and I started sobbing.

M: Yeah.

A: Cuz I was like the person who actually wrote most of these songs was actually there playing them. You know I talked to my mother about to show a lot because she was a Beatles fan in the sense that everyone was a Beatles fan in the 60s. Like, she told me that she and my father didn't buy any Beatles records because there wasn't any need to because they were everywhere all the time. So they didn't buy that. So we're watching some videos on YouTube on her TV and I started crying at something about "Let it Be" and she said you have to understand we heard this stuff around all the time and you know we kind of just got used to it. And I said that's not really the point! The point is that we were there and he was literally in the room playing it!

M: Yeah!

A: But before we bring on our guest, Keri Rivera, who will help us talk about Jay. Who we've totally forgotten about! [laughs]

M: We totally forgot Jay Clifford even existed!

A: I think Jay would like it that way.

M: [laughs] Probably!

A: Jay would prefer for us to talk about Paul McCartney. [laughter] But I would like to mention though that we had a previous episode where I said that you know if you held a gun to my head I would have to pick Paul. So I've been thinking about that a lot lately and I thought well I wonder if that'll change or whatever. And I thought no, it's Paul. It's Paul. I like a lot about George Harrison. I think he has the best bone structure and he seems like he's a very nice, interesting person but you know he's Paul McCartney! [laughs]

M: Right, right.

A: I'm just saying! I'm also going to be seeing Ringo in August at the Ryman Auditorium and I think that'll be really interesting.

M: That'll be good. Yeah, I saw Ringo.

A: Oh yeah?

M: Back in 2014.

A: Wow, a long time ago!

M: Yeah [laughs] I know! Back in the old days.

A: Way back in 2014. Think about how long 2014 is from 1970 thought.

M: Yeah!

A: Jeez. It also has got me thinking a lot about fandom cuz that's really one of my topics is fandom, primarily as we know because this is a podcast that I started about fandom! [laughs] They're like no shit! You're interested in fandom! But it got me thinking a lot about you know being a Beatles fan is very, very easy to do for a lot of people because again their music is so influential and so widely known and so deeply embedded into the culture that is difficult to step back and really take a look at that. I mean it seems to be getting easier as time goes on to look back with a sense of perspective and really think about the different eras of the different careers and hindsight being 20-20, etcetera, etcetera. But it really got me thinking about what does that mean to be a Beatles fan. Because it seems like a lot of guy Beatles fans will talk about, oh they did this on such-and-such date, in such-and-such month, in such-and-such a year on take blah blah at blah blah studios. I'm like I don't really care. [laughter] I mean that's not technically something that only male fans do but that's just not something that interests me. I'm more interested in the emotions around it.

M: Yeah! Like someone, I posted a video of, what was it? "Long Tall Sally", no! It was...

A: Yeah.

M: It was "Baby's in Black"!

A: Yeah, yeah, yeah!

M: And one of my friends commented how loud the girls were screaming.

A: Yeah, I remember that! Yeah, yeah.

M: And I'm like, I love that!

A: I mean you don't really notice it in that one!

M: You don't! No not even in that one!

A: It was the other one that, yeah, it was the other one that had it much louder.

M: Yeah. But I...

A: She pointed out that they were still able to harmonize over whatever sounds they were hearing and I'm like, well yeah!

M: Yeah, they had been playing like...

A: They knew what they were doing.

M: for years! They had become such a tight band from all of their years playing over in Hamburg and at Cavern Club and just playing non-stop that they, I think they could have [laughs] I think they could have harmonized even if they couldn't hear at all!

A: At all, yeah! Yeah, absolutely. But it's just, I don't know, I'll see footage of the girls that are screaming and grabbing at their faces and crying I'm like, I'm sort of detached to it. Like, oh that's funny. Sometimes they'll have looks on their faces where I'm like I know exactly what you feel like looking at the look on your face! I know!

M: Yep.

A: But you know once you're actually one of the people who is personally screaming over Paul McCartney or crying over Paul McCartney personally then it's like yeah this is some real shit. [laughs]

M: Yep.

A: It's not sure all the time whether it's maybe sore contagious cuz you're sort of expected to be like that but I don't think that's really it necessarily.

M: Yeah, yeah. Maybe a small portion for some people.

A: Yeah, cuz it is sort of a group activity cuz you're like yeah we're all here being all hyped. But I will say one last thing, now that we've hit the 3:30 mark, I didn't hype myself up for the show. I mean I was super excited, you know like I'm going to go see Paul McCartney! So I was excited in that respect but I didn't hype myself up big time cuz I didn't want to be disappointed just in case it was weird. And there has to be some tacit understanding that the audience does want a lot of Beatles references and actual Beatles material and Beatles themed stuff before the show etcetera, etcetera. But I didn't hype myself up to be all, oh this wasn't as great as I thought. Because it was. It was better than I could've imagined.

M: Alright, well I think we are ready to add Keri.

A: Alright!

M: And I will see if I can do that!

A: Okay!

M: Ok, we are [laughs] joined today [laughter] Hello listeners! We are joined today by special guest, Keri Rivera.

Keri: Hello. Hi my name is Keri. I am a Jaygirl.

A: And you were at the bus shed, that's hard to say, the bus shed show in Charleston right?

K: Yeah, the bus shed show. I tried to say it like five times before joining this...

A: Kept sounding drunk, like "the bush shed show, bush shed" It was really, really hot that day if I recall correctly.

K: Mmhmm, it was hot. It was a very, well and it was one of those things—well, I am the person who took Melanie kicking and screaming as it were to her first Jump, Little Children show.

A: Yes, as mentioned on a previous episode.

K: Indeed. And after having been taken myself by other girl friends. So as you were talking about like how there's that kind of string of female fandom where we like your girlfriend's like "oh hey, we need to go do this thing" so, that was how I went from Greenville down to Charleston for a weekend to see this like band that my friends were really into. And it turns out—so I have five younger brothers and the oldest of my younger brothers was also a fan. Cuz he had gone to the Governor's School for science and matt down in, like, I don't know, somewhere in the middle of nowhere, South Carolina. But they were all Jump fans so he wanted to go so I was like, ok cool I'll take my brother. Like, little bro come along and then the girlfriends and went and saw this band. And I thought it was kind of funny like listening to Melanie describe how I described the band the first time. [laughter] Like, I was very focused on the cellist and how he was classically trained. And I was like, oh my gosh I totally did say that thing.

M: Yeah.

K: And then, you know of course this like other flamboyant more entertaining kind of artistic singer. And then I remembered as we were talking about that it wasn't until like, my third show that I converted to become a Jaygirl.

A: Or as I like to describe it you turned your head to the left. [laughter]

K: So specific and so, so true!

M: Yeah.

K: Just a really funny mental image. It's like, oh!

M: Oh, I'll look over here! Oh! Who's that?

K: Oh, what is that? [laughter]

A: What is that?

K: Has that been there the whole time? [laughter]

A: What is that?

K: But thanks to the beautiful soul, Chris Slack, and his archive of all the Jump shows I can actually go back and relisten to the actual moment when I became a Jump girl.

A: Oh really?

M: Oh my gosh what moment was that?

K: That would've been in the encore of the Georgia Theater concert on June 29th 2001. So you know I've been a Jump girl or like, Jaygirl specifically, for 18 years now. But it was The encore when he came out and sang "Where She Lies".

A: Yeah.

K: And like I remember the show was like fun and this was like the third time I'd seen them. So I went bus shed and then I drug Melanie to Handlebar and then I created an excuse to have a business trip to Atlanta to go visit another friend and to go see them at Georgia Theater. [laughs] And so, I knew this was becoming a thing. Like I'd I bought Magazine at the bus shed and listened to that for two weeks and then I bought The Licorice Tea Demos and Buzz at The Handlebar and listened to that for two weeks. So this was like going somewhere.

A: Right.

K: But that moment when "Where She Lies" and like the whole place was just like, shhhhh, quiet and it was just Jay and then like slowly and gradually the others came in. But I was like, oh. Oh, yeah. Yeah, no, I like that one. The Jay.

A: [laughs] I like that one.

M: And you came back from that show talking non-stop about "Where She Lies".

K: Yeah.

M: Yeah.

K: It was a moment and it's recorded on archive.org and it's like, kinda one of those tear worthy things. I actually have, I think I might have one of the best and like, most perfect sad Jay fangirl stories of all time.

A: Please tell me this!

K: And it's centered around "Where She Lies" like I feel like we've kinda like jumped right in. Like, hi old friends! Here's a super deep story of tragedy from my youth! But, like, can't make this stuff up! So that was the moment I fell in love with the band and like you know a lot of things happened. And I think what's interesting about this podcast and listening to all the episodes, it is about fandom. It's not even about what you're following but the choices that I made as a result of like having this thing over there that I really liked. And where I was like, ok so, I really like this thing, like what else should I do with my life that I really like? [laughs] And like, how do we bring more of this into my life?

A: Right.

K: And so I started following the band around after that. Like it was pretty hyper obsessive. And I'm pretty sure I dragged Melanie with me to Charlotte like a couple weeks later at the end of that tour. And then for the next like eighteen months while I was still living in Greenville like we would go anytime they were within a hundred-mile radius. And then I actually ended up moving to Charleston and it was kind of weird when I moved to Charleston. Like the Jump following tapered off a lot because they don't really play around the area. They play in Charleston and then Columbia is like the next closest. And so like it was great for Dock Street but didn't get to like, hyper obsessively follow them around so much. But when 2005 came around living in Charleston, had the good life, like had a lot of friends who were fans and had this friend named Amanda who is like one of my best friends. And she was at school in Clemson and she's talking to me over the summer about like "oh my gosh like there's this guy I like but I just don't know if he likes me back. And these are all the things I like about him. And he's just so great" and blah blah blah blah blah "but I don't think he's into me" blah blah blah. And as we were talking about like this guy that she liked, I was like okay you need to meet my brother. Like, not the oldest brother, the second oldest brother. Cuz I was like, you guys would totally hit it off and get along. And so they, my brother was at the time serving a two-year mission for the Mormon church and was coming home like right before his birthday that September. So on September 24th of 2005 there was another Jump concert at the Georgia Theater. And so I used this as an excuse to drive up from Charleston, go see my brother cuz he's been gone for two years but really we stopped and picked up Amanda in Clemson and went down to Athens for the show. And it was a really good show. Like, of course. And they sang "Where She Lies" again and at this point in time we knew that things were kind of winding down and coming to an end so I'm like crying during "Cathedrals" and remembering being there and the moment I fell in love with the band and just having all these feelings and emotions. And then after the show I'm like, hey so what did you think about my brother? And she's like, "your brother's a stud." And I was like, I know, told you so. And so they went on and started dating. When Dock Street came around that year he actually came to Charleston cuz she was from Charleston and that's how we'd met. And so we were all downtown at the end when that busking thing happened and then we went up to the market and everybody's there. They had a really fun couple of days hanging out in Charleston and he was getting ready to fly back to school and they started dating long-distance, ended up getting married!

A: Wow

K: So super sweet amazing like, aw, super cool story. My brother was always a fan of like the song "Where She Lies" and he has a great voice and he would sing it too. And it was kinda this thing that was already in there. And then fast forward to a year and a half later she was killed in a car accident. And I know! Like I told you this is like the ultimate super sad and I can only speak about it this clearly because it's been a long time. And you know, these things happen and grief comes in and grief changes you, and grief changes the ways that you see the world and yet I think sometimes you have to take a step back and look at the story of things. And so she was killed in this car accident on September 18th and her funeral was on my brother's 25th birthday on September 25th, er 24th which was four years from the day I introduced them at a Jump, Little Children show.

A: Oh, wow.

K: Yeah. So like, ultimate super, super kinda cemented really sad thing and yet, you know it's kind of like over the years taken this kind of beautiful, bittersweet meaning for me. Because it's a very specific song about grief and loss and how you process through that. And you can't make this up sometimes! It's like, really? Really? Like, that was that? And here we go and so now I like to think of the story as kind of like the ultimate super sad [laughs] Jaygirl story because it deals so much with you know, Jay's thoughts on mortality and life and it's almost like the sad moments are, to me, what make the happy moments so joyful. Because it is all temporary and it could all be gone in a moment. And taking that breath to stop and think about things and to put it in place and yeah. That's my sad Jaygirl story. Was that too much of a downer to start with? [laughs]

A: Wow! Well, I don't know. I think as morbid Jaygirls we take it all in stride. [laughter] No, I think that in the context of all this I think that's, I don't know, it works for me because Jump was a big part of my life and you know obviously. Then in 2015 when they got back together, most of that time right after they announced that they're, you know, "we're getting back together" my father was dying of cancer and it was the end of the year after he had died that the shows began. I was just like okay that's the time in my life where I really need a Jump, Little Children show. Not to be flippant about it! But you know here they are. It's strange how things work out like that. And when I talk about it I probably sound kinda flip but it's hard. It's kinda hard to express that without being a little flip, for me personally. I don't know.

K: And there's definitely I think like a gravity to it.

A: Yes.

K: And I think that's part of what ties it together and again like I said it before and I'll say it again, it's not about the thing you're a fan of. It's about the actions you take or what it brings to your life.

A: Right.

K: As a result of it.

A: Yeah.

K: Yeah, it's the context of you know, yeah, this was a big huge sad thing that happened and yet I'm not alone in this. There's other people who have felt this. There's other people who have been through this. You know, what is this part of my story going to be? And then you know, on the other side of that: how am I going to use this to propel myself forward and to help other people too. I mean that's kind of where I get to it. It's like, ok these big things happen but you know what? Big things happen to everybody and what are we going to do with it?

A: Yeah. Wow, yeah. And I think sometimes people don't really get that because we sort of look at fandom and following a band around and music is basically just entertainment or triviality. But as I've repeatedly seen people demonstrate, or as in the documentary I Used to Be Normal, it's more than just that. It's more than just, oh we're listening to music or we went and saw a band. It's, you're making friends through it, you're seeing parts of the world, you're seeing...

M: You're making career choices. [laughs]

A: Yes, career choices, you're moving sometimes. It really is shaping your life and I think people sort of lose sight of that or dismiss it.

M: Well, there's, I don't know, there's cuz you know people do dismiss it and they don't think about that but there are also people who would hear that you've made these choices in life based on the band and still dismiss it.

A: Yes, yeah. You moved because you were fans of a band?

M: Oh my gosh!

A: You followed a band around?

M: Yeah.

A: Yes. [laughter]

K: No, I'll tell you what. I moved because I started to question why I was willing to drive a hundred miles on a weeknight to stand you know, right up in front of Ward so I could look left at Jay and why that was my happiest place on the planet! [laughter] I was like, I mean these guys are great and all but if this is my happiest place on the planet what else should I be doing? [laughs]

A: Yeah, see I haven't gotten past that stage yet. [laughter]

K: I mean it's still, don't get, it's still the happiest place on the planet. Like, it is. It is what it is.

A: Yeah. But yeah speaking of big in front of Ward to look at Jay, at the Carrboro show this was the first time that you know beforehand I decided you know I'm going to stand in front of Jay this time and see what happens. [laughter]

M: For science! For science!

A: Cuz I usually don't do that. I'm almost always in front of Ward. Sometimes I'll be in front of Jonny cuz that's kind of a fun place to stand. But I'll rarely be between, standing in the area between Jayland and Mattland because you know that's sort of a fraught area. And I'm almost never right in front of Matt cuz that's just a little too much. But I ended up, somehow, I ended up being in the front row right in front of him, like immediately in front of him. And the deal with the Cat's Cradle is the stage is fairly low and fairly, there's like there's not a barrier there like there is at Terminal West. So the amps and all that stuff is right in front of you. You can lean on the stage if you want and I was like, I am too close! [laughter] I am too close! This is not good! Everyone can see the look on my face! Ward knows! [laughter] It was just so funny because the whole time I'm too close to look directly at him but I'm in the perfect spot to look directly at, if you get my drift.

M: I completely understand that!

A: You know I don't want to go on about it but the whole time I'm like, this would be great if I could take pictures from here but I can't because I'm right in front of him and it's very obvious. Although, unlike Ward, who is always looking at everybody in the audience all the time, Jay does not noticeably look down in front of himself. [laughs]

M: No. He doesn't.

K: So I like to pretend he didn't know I was there. [laughter] Melanie's like, yes he does. [laughs]

M: He looks over to like, what would it be, his left.

A: Yeah.

M: He looks over to his left.

A: He is observant but I'd like to pretend that since he didn't look directly at me right down in front of him that he didn't know I was there! [laughs]

M: Maybe, maybe it's like you said how it was you were too close. Maybe he's too cl...[laughs]

A: Yeah

M: ..too close to the audience and he can't look directly at the audience because it's too close!

A: He looks like in the middle distance.

M: Yeah.

A: He definitely looks in the middle distance, like he's definitely observing people from that standpoint. But it's not like Ward looking at people who are right in front of him.

M: Yeah. [laughs]

A: But yeah, that was quite the experience. And that pretty much did confirm for me. I was like, I should have been in this vicinity all along. Except that

K: it's too close

A: It's too close!

K: Too close! [laughter]

M: See, that's why I stand between Matt and Ward. It's the perfect distance where I don't feel so self-conscious about it.

A: But there was the comedy value for me! I was like, wow I'm really just right up here! [laughter] So that was funny to me because some people would know why I was up there.

M: Uh huh.

A: And also you do get a really good view of, you know you can actually watch him play! And watch all the little things he does. You know, we were theoretically going to embark on a discussion of all these little things that he does. And then I was completely distracted by some up-and-coming musician named Paul McCartney [laughter] that I forgot all about that stuff. You guys probably remember. But yeah you can definitely notice all that stuff but I felt like, I don't know, I just thought it was too funny to be like, I am too close! I should have had something to drink before this! [laughter]

K: It's too intimate! It's too real.

A: Too real!

M: He's just right there!

A: Then what was also funny was you know afterward I wasn't really necessarily expecting to see him because you know, I've been told he has to rest his voice after. But as soon as Ward told my drunk friend Kitty that Jay was resting his voice Jay appeared with Amy Cox, as I recall, like the minute Ward said that, Jay appeared. Which I thought was absolutely hysterical.

M: [laughs] Jay did that on purpose!

A: Yeah!

K: It's like the video when he's like "disconnected since birth." It's like, no, no, no, really resting your voice since birth. [laughter]

A: Yeah. But we went apeshit when we saw that he was there. [laughter] I like to describe it that way. I don't think we really did. But you know, it all turned out fine and Jay said it was great to see me and gave me a hug.

K: Wow.

A: I was like, I don't know what to do now! [laughter] I don't know what to do! And then later on he hugged me again, so that was quite an evening! [laughs]

M: A two hug night!

A: But I realized a long time ago you have to know when to leave a Jump show before— if something really cool happens you have to know, ok now I have to leave [laughter] before something stupid happens and I make an idiot of myself and have to leave now.

M: It's true.

A: But that didn't really happen at this show! We like, we were the last people there and I'm sure we looked silly being the last people there but it was completely worth it!

M: Well, someone's gotta be the last people there.

A: Yeah!

M: [laughs] It was your job that night!

A: Yeah! That was our job that night and it was completely worth it. Cuz it's just like we watched them drive away! [laughter] We watched them all get in the car. We watched Jay drive them away like he's the dad. [laughter]

M: I'm picturing this as like an end of a movie. [laughs] They all drive off into the sunset but the sun is already set.

A: My hotel was next door anyway so I wasn't really going anywhere.

M: Yeah.

A: So I was just going to walk to my hotel anyway. So that was the first show since the Licmag show and I was like I wonder what this show will be like in terms of am I crazy and was I imagining this whole thing. Cuz I don't really trust myself now. I'm like wait a minute. [laughter] I've actually been a Jaygirl this entire time [laughs] and didn't realize it for the past 20 years!

K: Yes, what else has changed in your world view?

A: What else do I not know? [laughter] And then I said something like, I know you don't want to be asked about lyrics I'll ask you about something else. So I thought it would be hilarious to ask him about whether there was an objective reality. So I did. He went into this long explanation of...

K: He had an answer! [laughs]

A: He had an amazing answer and I'm like, cuz I thought that would be hilarious. Ok, you don't want to answer questions about lyrics? Which he did! He did end up answering questions about lyrics. Like my favorite hobby now is coming up with questions to ask him and just see what happens. [laughter]

M: Will he answer them or will he latch onto a part that isn't really the question.

A: Relevant, and go on and on about that...

M: And, yeah.

A: Yeah. Well...

K: And does it matter? [laughs]

M: No!

K: If you're talking to Jay, you're talking to Jay! That's just a beautiful thing.

M: It does not matter. It does not matter at all. As long as he's talking!

A: Ask him a question then just stand back and see what happens.

K: Like, I'm just so happy to know that there's a Jay Clifford alive in this world doing Jay Clifford things and being Jay Clifford. And then caring enough to share some of that Jay Cliffordness with us. That's just, that's beautiful. It's a beautiful thing.

A: Having a podcast, just like anything he would want to even say on the podcast, it's like wow this is beyond anything I could have imagined back 20 years ago. This is just incredible. And the funny thing is Matt seems equally as astonished. Like, Jay's talking! Jay's telling us stuff. Jay has encyclopedic knowledge of God knows what!

M: He really does! [laughs]

K: Probably God.

M: He can talk about anything!

A: Apparently!

M: Well, I remember when Evan and Matt did a live video on the Jump, Little Children page.

A: Oh, was this when they were talking about him having all the trivia knowledge...

M: The random facts! Yeah, so.

A: Yeah! And it's true!

M: It's true!

A: It's wild. It's always funny, though, I just think it's really funny because you know the Jaygirls that I knew back in the day would always joke about what an airhead he was and he would say these, he would have like the dumbest stage banter. Which Matt agreed with! Matt was like, his stage, wasn't he? Matt was like, he'll talk about his parents and say these totally dumb things about his parents! [laughs]

M: Yeah.

A: Like, it's apparently it's all of the above! He knows incredible, weird science trivia and he says things like "I feel silly, that means I'm going to act silly." [laughter] One of my favorite ones. I have like, tons of dumb things Jay has said on stage. "I'm in a silly mood that means I'm going to act silly."

K: Oh, the things Jay does.

A: Or as I said once Jay does a lot of things and no one knows how or why or if he will ever do them again. [laughter] It's always something with that guy.

K: It's always something. If it's not a toe turned in.

A: Yeah! Speaking of that, it's so funny now. You know you can listen to, not even their live stuff, maybe sometimes the recorded stuff, but I feel like there's a different atmosphere in the recorded stuff cuz he's not standing up necessarily. Sometimes I joke you know, when they're recording he has to be standing up so he can do the leg thing and do the knee thing and really get that sound across. Cuz I think that's sort of crucial....

M: It's key.

A: ...to how this all goes.

K: It's like you can see the sound when it starts in his toe and then travels all the way up and then it's like, by the time it comes out of his mouth it's been through the whole of Jay.

A: Yeah. It comes up from his shoes, yeah!

K: It's a beautiful thing.

A: Yeah! Ok, now he's gonna stomp on his pedal, now he's gonna turn a little bit, now he's gonna raise his eyebrows! [laughter]

K: Here it comes!

A: Now he's gonna strain at the neck! [laughter] There's all these, all the things that he's doing!

K: How did you not know you were a Jaygirl, Anne, how did you not know? [laughter]

A: Look. [laughs] Hush. I realize though that whenever I was looking at pictures of them I would always look for Jay first. Like, where's Jay? Or after the show I'd be like, where's Jay? What did Jay think about it? But I don't know. I don't know.

K: I don't know, Melanie I think like, I don't know I feel like there were so many hours of our road tripping. Cuz we spend a lot of hours like covering the greater Greenville upstate/Northern Georgia, like that whole area like going from show to show to show. And I mean, I don't know there's something about the whole experience and like, I don't know. What did we talk about in the car, Melanie? [laughter]

M: Well, we talked about Jay! [laughter]

K: That sounds right!

M: We developed theories, talked about things.

A: Mm, things!

M: You know the whole gamut!

A: See! Yeah, see I also discussed the theories and the things, if you will, with my groups over the years and a lot of my favorite people in these groups were the Jaygirls and still are. But you know I never really put two and two together ‘til fairly recently, so. [laughs]

K: Ok, so what do we think the like top three qualities of a Jaygirl are? I don't know if I have an answer. I'm thinking about it myself right now.

M: Yeah.

A: Yeah.

M: I don't really...

K: Okay so, maybe there's something about, and this is totally biased because you know I am a Jaygirl and I'm talking to other Jaygirls so we can completely agree on this one. But I think there was something about like, intellect. Like I think Jay appealed to people who were, and not necessarily like saying "oh, smarter blah, blah, whatever", but people who are more intellectually engaged in watching the show and appreciating some of the poetry and artistry behind the music. Not just like the super fun experience of the show but it's like there was a depth of the appreciation.

M: Well also, cuz Anne, you've said that, you know, you remarked earlier how people would talk about he's an airhead?

A: Yes. And that was my experience where people would joke about he would say these airheaded things.

M: Cuz that was a new thing to me. Cuz I never thought he was an airhead.

A: Yeah.

M: And so I was more along the...

A: Well, I was, here's the thing though...

M: ...intellectual, you know, he seemed like this intellectual, broody, silent [laughs]

A: See I think the people that I knew were such wits and were so funny so they were always joking about that.

M: Yeah.

A: I mean, you know I still know these people and they're still very funny. But they liked to joke about that so much that that became sort of more the fun was to joke about he did something dumb or like once he was literally distracted by a light up necklace that I had. [laughter] I mean, you know, all these things have to be factored in. But talking about Jaygirl characteristics, I thought it was funny a couple months ago I was like, you know I've been a goth this whole time. I was sort of joking with myself about it but I was like, I am fascinated by cemeteries. Like I went to five, six cemeteries when I was in Vienna. Part of that is because there's a lot of cemeteries in Vienna. Part of that was like, holy shit yes, I absolutely have to go to the Imperial Crypt. I have to go to the Vienna Central Cemetery. Part of that was because Matt wanted me to go to Falco's grave. He was like, "go to Falco's grave." Like that was the first thing he said. I was like, what should I do in Vienna and he's like, "go to Falco's grave" and I was like, ok! [laughs]

M: And you have to listen when Matt says do this.

A: And I did! Yeah! Like, he was right out the gate he was immediately like, "go to Falco's grave." So what choice did I have really? [laughter] But it was freaking amazing! I was actually upset there was a major cemetery or really, not cemetary so much of a place of rest that I missed and I'm like, I'm gonna have to go next time I go to Vienna I'm gonna have to go to that one! So, [laughter] that was part of it. You know we sort of joke about you have to be into flowers. [laughter] Be into cemeteries, flowers, and birds. [laughter] That's really about it.

M: Yep.

A: But also I realized that for pretty much all my life my type has been men with brown eyes and dark hair. See also Paul McCartney. [laughter] And you know also George Harrison to be honest with you. But that has been the pattern for my entire life.

M: Yeah, mine too.

A: Cuz that's just how it is! Well, Melanie and I will joke, we'll be like, well add so-and-so to the list. Or so-and-so's on the list. So I'm gradually piecing this together and realizing oh, okay! [laughs]

K: I was going to say, Melanie what do you love about Jay? Please, tell us.

A: Oh my God! [laughs]

M: Oh! Jeez, where do you start? [laughs] That sounded a little too much didn't it! [laughter]

A: Like, how much time do we have?

M: Well, I've always liked guys who have very pretty voices.

A: Oh, God I didn't even...

M: That has been...

A: I totally forgot to mention that!

M: Yeah! [laughs]

A: Don't get me started on that!

M: That has always been my thing. Cuz I was into like, Jeff Buckley, just really pretty voices that are pretty. [laughter]

A: I like his pretty voice! [laughts]

K: Well and it's so hard to explain cuz I will say sure like I had friends in the years since then who will hear a song and be like, "oh, Cathedrals is nice" or blah blah whatever but it's like there's just something about that live experience and being in front of it that I think cements it in a way that's hard to replicate...

A: Being in front of it! [laughs]

K: Being in front of it. Not too close. [laughter] Slightly to the side with the perfect angle.

A: No but sometimes it's ok being too close. It's like I knew I was too close and I was like I guess I better deal with it. [laughter]

K: I guess this is happening.

A: Oh well.

K: Here we go. [laughter] And yet when you say that like I physically have a reaction to like imagining being that close. Like, eugh, yeah no, no, no. Too close. [laughter]

M: Yeah I think I've only been that close—well there is the one, this was at a Jay solo show.

K: Ooo, too close.

M: But he was playing at the Coffee Underground in downtown Greenville, which is a very small room, and no one was sitting on the front row so I sat on the front row. [laughter] I was the only person on the front row and I felt very conspicuous and very uncomfortable the whole night! And of course luck would have it, because I was taking pictures, at some point during the show Jay stops and says, "I kept seeing this moving out of corner of my eye and I thought this person was putting sunglasses on and off" [laughter] but it was just me raising my camera to take pictures of him! [laughs]

A: See!

M: And then after the show when I was talking to him and I asked him for a picture and right when my mom was taking the picture he leans over into my ear and whispers, "look into the sunglasses" [laughter] and I lost it! So he does pay attention!

K: I think he's paying attention to everything all the time.

A: So disturbing. [laughs]

K: Like, but seriously, I think that's part of the Jayness.

A: Yeah, apparently he has been!

K: It's like maybe he doesn't let it back out but I feel like it all goes in.

M: Yeah.

A: We would joke so much about him saying silly things like that, "I thought someone was raising and lowering sunglasses" like, what? [laughter] Like, what the hell are you talking about? You forget the fact that, as has become very obvious with Cool Demo, that you know, he's smarter than all of us put together! [laughter]

M: But see I love that. He can go from very deeply philosophical to...

A: "I thought someone was taking sunglasses on and off!" [laughter]

M: Yeah. That's great!

K: Well, and Melanie you had asked me the other day about Jaydar?

M: Oh yes!

A: Yes!

M: Jaydar! Let's talk about Jaydar.

A: Yes, it's a great point.

M: So I guess we kind of have a theory about Jaydar.

A: Yes. Do you want me to mention my example of it?

M: Yes.

A: I'm gonna remove names for, I'm going to try to not mention any names just in case this person doesn't want to have their name mentioned!

M: To protect the innocent.

A: To protect the innocent because it's not really a big deal but once we were looking for one member of the band and I asked another member of the band where's so-and-so and we went into the auditorium where [laughs] where so-and-so was and I immediately realized that Jay was also in the room as did Melanie.

M: Yeah.

A: But the person that we were with and who wanted to see band member A, afterward we realized she had no idea that he was in there. And I was like how is that possible? [laughter]

K: Where's your Jaydar?

A: Yeah!

K: Use it in a sentence.

A: Do you even Jaydar? [laughs]

K: [laughs] Do you even Jaydar.

M: Because I don't know if all Jaygirls have Jaydar. Do you have Jaydar, Keri?

K: Yeah, definitely.

M: Yeah, ok.

K: It definitely is a sense of the presence of "oh he's over there."

M: Yeah.

K: So I don't get too close. Cuz, you know, don't want to be awkward.

M: Can't look directly at him. [laughs]

A: Megan does, I think.

K: Did I ever--oh my gosh like, did I ever tell you about time my brother, and this is back when JNCOs were a thing cuz it was the early 2000s. We went to an acoustic show at Clemson that happened to be the night before my birthday, so our birthday, Anne.

A: Yeah.

K: Did you happen, do you remember going to a show the night before your birthday or no?

A: I had several birthday shows and I don't think I went to that one. Cuz I think I only went to like two Clemson shows.

K: Well they like, so after the show...

A: I'm so old I just forget them all.

K: Right. They all just kind of blend together [laughter] in a great ball of things I know I did. But no, like, so after the show my brother kinda like figured out a way to ditch me and they went. And I think I ended up talking to Matt in the lobby with one of our friends, and I'm like, where is everybody else, they're taking a long time to come out? I go back into the little room and they're standing there talking to Jay. And I'm like oh my gosh they're talking to Jay. Cuz nobody ever gets to talk to Jay, right?

A: Yeah.

K: And so like, ha ha ha, and he looked at me like he wanted to say something but then he didn't say something.

A: Right.

K: And I was just like, Jay's looking at me, it's great. And so like, "ok, goodnight" and we go home. The next morning I had a CD player in my alarm clock and so the next morning as I'm waking up on my birthday I hear "happy birthday to you" and it's Jay's voice. And I'm like...

A: Oh my God.

K: Exactly! And it's like, I was still asleep when I heard the first one and then like "happy birthday to you" and the second one and I'm like, oh my gosh that's Jay coming out of my thing. And so my brain goes to like, oh that's so sweet somebody found a clip of him singing happy birthday. And then like the third line, "happy birthday dear Keri" I'm like AHH! [laughter] Like screaming, jumping out of bed right now because it's Jay singing to me! And then it's like "happy birthday to you", Melanie you'll have to play it. You have my permission to share or play wherever cuz I know you have the digital files.

[Jay singing "Happy Birthday" plays]

K: And I just like freaked out because my brother had slipped into the pocket of his JNCO jeans a full sized tape recorder. Like, a full sized and after the show they had intentionally ditched me to get Jay to sing this beautiful thing. And Jay's like, "Oh, my sister's name is Cary", like super sweet. So when I went back in he was looking at me like, "oh I should say happy birthday" but then he withheld. [laughter] So that was why he wanted to like say something. And then he was laughing at my brother bringing a tape recorder to a show and then he saw the one he brought and he just laughed cuz it's ridiculous! But then like, no, my brother somehow that night had gone home, burned it from, gotten it converted from a tape over to a CD, and put it in my alarm clock without me waking up. Like, amazing.

A: Wow. Yeah!

K: And that was like, honestly to this day probably one of the best birthday gifts I've ever had just because of the sheer element of surprise.

A: That's one of the most thoughtful things that I've heard of that type of thing. Wow.

K: Yeah. So sweet. And it's an amazing, like I basically listened to it on repeat that day and pretty much every birthday but.

A: Yeah!

K: It's the most, it's like a gift that keeps on giving. It's the most fun, little sweet thing. But it also I think kinda speaks to the overall fan experience with this. It's like I love that they're there. They're so sweet and so generous with their time. And just even the core talent of this group is so incredible. Like it's just, I don't know. It's why it's my favorite spot in the world to be there listening to them perform and sharing this with us. And then they've, you know, as fans they've given us these sweet little gifts through the years and it's enough that it's there. I don't need to go. I don't need to be like right up next to it. Don't need to be too close.

A: Yeah.

K: But to have those little moments, it's just like it's enough to keep me hooked. It's like there's enough other stuff but then they go and do something like that and I'm like ok, I'm super hooked. Yeah.

A: But yeah, the extra things that they do, cuz they don't just tour. They've got stuff like what they're doing now with the Patreon. I mean just Cool Demo alone is incredible.

M: That's more than I could possibly ask for!

A: Yeah, I'm constantly saying that. You know, I told Jay that too but I feel like I say it too much but it really is something. I mean I don't really know that much about music so I'm listening to it half the time going, ok. [laughs] So it's not really, it doesn't really speak to me on that level where I'm like, oh now I see what they're doing. But I get an idea of it because it is accessible enough that you understand the gist of it. But just the fact that they're even doing this and excited about it too because Jay apparently really loves doing this and we know that Jay doesn't do stuff he doesn't want to do.

M: Yeah.

A: You know, broadly speaking if Jay doesn't want to do it it's not gonna happen. But that's just tremendous being able to have that now. Sometimes I think about going back in time and explaining what Jump, Little Children stuff is like in 2019 to me in 1999 or something and me being like, what's a podcast? [laughter] Well, it's like a radio show but you run all of it and people can listen to it whenever they want.

K: I mean, and Anne like you were cutting edge for the time.

A: Yeah, was I?

K: Like having a website up.

A: Oh yeah.

K: Was like, whoa, I mean.

A: It is so funny now to look at the code for that and look at, you know because I was doing this HTML, hand coded HTML with some CSS. Looking at it now it's like I'm not even going to try to—cuz everything about building a webpage now is these preformed templates and it all looks very much the same and I have considered moving to another hosting service or whatever and I'm so behind that I don't even know really where to start. So I've kept it where it is and there's some pages that I probably will just delete cuz they're totally useless now. But on the other hand it is kind of interesting looking at like webrings. [laughter] Just think that they're there. Just remembering, yes we did used to do this! So some of it is interesting just from an artifact point of view but it's so, things are so much different now that it's been really, oh man. But at the time yeah I was sitting there hand coding that stuff, making the graphics myself. And I'm not really sure, cuz I can't remember why I started doing it. I just sorted happened. And then it kept happening. And the main drive was the quote pages, which I think were really a drive for it, for a certain aspect of the fandom experience for Jump, Little Children was just you know my meta commentary on what was happening coming from many different people and people recognizing when they read such a such that I knew people would find something funny because they would relate to it. And it's, that's how we sort of developed our own sort of inner experience in the fandom. And I think Matt has touched on that, talking about that's how they knew they made it was people having in-jokes and a little culture about them in reference to my website. And one thing that he said on the call, which I thought was interesting, was he said that he'd never really been a fan. We were talking to him about the Beatles fan movie I Want to Hold Your Hand, which by the way is basically a documentary! [laughter] Having seen a Beatle in concert, it's basically a documentary. All that stuff is perfectly understandable. All of it! But I was telling him to see it and he was sort of warning me in a way, basically saying he doesn't really have a fandom experience like that. Like the closest he gets is Radiohead. And it kind of makes me think that I'm not entirely sure that this is an experience men can really have, if that makes sense. It might be sort of a controversial thing to say but I don't really think they can have that. There's some sort of, oh God, I've really done it this time! [laughter] There's a sexual element that I'm talking about. [laughter]

K: Oh, that. Yeah nevermind then. [laughs]

A: Yeah, see. Yeah. [laughs] Why do I always end up doing that? [laughs]

K: I don't know, Anne, why do you? [laughs]

A: I don't think they can quite experience things like that in this way. [laughs]

K: Interesting!

A: And I think they just have an entire fandom experience that's completely divorced from and of this stuff.

M: Yes! Right!

A: Cuz you know, yeah, when we were talking about what Erin called the boring pointless technical crap, like "oh they first played such-and-such song on such-and-such date at such-and-such occasion." I don't give a shit! [laughs] Sorry.

M: And then they get into the gear and they they get into, you know, the gatekeeper stuff, like "oh what album was so-and-so on?"

A: And that's all well and good and there's a lot of that in Beatles fandom that I was thinking there's a lot, there's a huge amount of technical detail and trivia and factoids and stuff in Beatles fandom. But it's really intimidating because there's just so much of it. There's even a lot of it in Jump, Little Children fandom but I just don't think that that's the most important aspect of fandom.

M: Yeah.

A: LIke, you're a real fan because you know take such-and-such at blah blah studios is the blah blah take where so-and-so isn't playing the blah blah! [laughter]

K: Oh, so-and-so on the blah blah.

A: So-and-so's proficiency on the blah blahs vastly underestimated.

K: Well, now I'm like musing over this whole, "hmm there's a sexual element to it, interesting."

M: Well, speaking of the sexual element.

A: Uh oh.

K: Wow!

M: Didn't we have a great quote that we wanted to...

A: You'll have to be more specific.

M: The Devon Powers piece.

A: Yes! Oh my God, let me read that.

M: That was like...

A: Let me read that!

M: Yeah!

A: Give me a second to find that. Cuz that is really something else. I want to add first that for while I thought that Devon Powers was a man. I don't know why I thought this because doesn't necessarily follow. But I thought this was just like a white kid music critic who was just really taken with Jay Clifford. And that's not the case, but let me read this full quote because this is from a review of a New York show in 2003. "Jay Clifford. Recorded, his singing is certainly dazzling but here, in person, it is positively jeweled. His voice, here in this room, is both achingly mortal and somehow superhuman--a thing of awe, a wonder-inspiring marvel at what man can do, producing the awareness that this is no ordinary man. When he sings, toes curl and hearts flutter, the room goes quiet and still with reverence; parts of us are dying, becoming more alive. The sound of him, here, is hyperreal; it triggers a tingle of adrenaline and serotonin and hormones, rushing, all at once, through our veins. When there are no words to describe something's beauty, there should only be sound—and this would be it, Jay Clifford, singing. The populist for of this show perpetuates this: the screaming college girls who people the majority demand the slow, crafted love songs, and Clifford delivers, with gladness. "Where She Lies", "A Lover's Greed" [sic] and "15 Stories" among them, Clifford appreciates the suggestions, claiming their acrobatics might kill him, yet through each he more than survives, and it is we who experience beautiful death...If tragedy and hope, good times and bad, are the stuff of life, then Jay Clifford is a walking testament to the importance of living. He's a gracious gift, a force that keeps creating, no matter what may come his way." Wow! [laughter]

K: That about sums it up!

M: Yeah!

A: It's like, Devon gets it! Okay!

M: Completely!

A: And I did look up Devon and Devon is a woman and I think she is a, has a doctorate in something which I think she obtained during or after the time that she wrote this, when she was reporting for the, let's see what was it? It was Pop Matters. And yeah [laughs] that pretty much does sum it up! Cuz you know, you get what she's saying! [laughs]

K: Well, I would give her an honorary doctorate in Jayology.

A: [laughs] Jayology!

K: [laughs] I just realized how close that was to geology. That's bad, sorry!

A: Jayology, see that's funny!

K: You can cut that out if you want to. [laughs]

A: No, I appreciate that. Do we have any closing remarks about Jay?

M: In conclusion, Jay Clifford.

K: I'll second the Jay Clifford. [laughter]

A: Motion carried!

K: This was fun. Well, I would like to say I am enjoying listening to you guys doing the podcast. It's been, I mean I feel like there's a lot of shared experience in specifically this group of people who have been fans of this band for this long. And to kind of almost have to go through that grieving process of losing them, accepting that they're never gonna come back, and then like, holy crap, we get this glorious resurrection, and it's [vocalizes]

A: 10 years later.

K: Oh, maybe that leads into, are you guys gonna tease the next topic?

A: I was just about to say. Yeah, the next episode we're having is going to be about, more or less, religion. Fandom and religion. Why is there a shocked silence? [laughter]

M: Dun, dun, DUN!

A: We're also going to have Keri on for that one!

K: Yeah, I got things to say about that.

M: It's been really good having you with us for this episode, Keri.

A: Yes! It's wonderful.

K: Thanks for scheduling around my kids' naps. I appreciate that. [laughter]

A: On that note, until next time!

["Like a Prayer" by Madonna fades in, plays briefly, then fades out]