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just a second: a jump, little children fandom podcast

transcript: episode 2

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[the beginning of Cyndi Lauper's "Girls Just Want to Have Fun" plays briefly then fades out]

Anne: Hi, I'm Anne.

Melanie: and I Melanie

Anne: and you're listening to Just a Second: A Jump, Little Children podcast

M: where the topical discussion is beyond belief.

A: Well this is our second episode. I want to mention that we actually recorded the second episode last Sunday but I was rambling so much and I was so unfocused and I went on for like an hour that I thought you know what I'm going to redo that because I just need to get this better organized. Cuz this is actually a topic I think about a lot, but before I get into that I wanted to also mention that I now have a new microphone. It's the same one that Melanie has. So hopefully this will be a little clearer than first episode. I haven't actually listen to the first episode because I'm sort of cringing inside thinking about how bad my mic must sound! And I think at some point also my neighbor started running water? So it was sort of like ahhh [laughs] but hopefully it's not too bad. So that's sort of the situation in terms of of the technology. I'm hoping this episode will be shorter than the the first cut and I'm really hoping I've got my ideas down well enough to not ramble on and on for ages, but as was mentioned in the first episode this episode will be about female fandom! And before we get to that though the Patreon just went live yesterday...was it yesterday?

M: Uhhh, Thursday wasn't it?

Anne: Thursday

M: Thursday.

Anne: Yeah it was Thursday. Ok! Yeah, it all sort of runs together after a while. So that was interesting, I'm sure we'll be talking about that in the future but that's really the big news in terms of what's currently happening as well as the upcoming shows in May on May 3rd & May 4th. I had originally thought I was going to go to the Columbia show, cuz it doesn't look like I can go to both, but after awhile I realized that it makes more sense for me to go to the North Carolina show. And you're going to the Columbia, right?

M: Yes. Cuz it's just two hours away.

Anne: Right, right. The...I haven't actually been to a lot of the North Carolina venues at all because it is quite a little bit of a drive, and you know back in the day I wasn't exactly flying to see Jump shows all that often. [laughter] I mean even...I don't think I did at all actually cuz even when we went to the northeast it was the Huffs that were driving to the northeast. If we'd been able to fly I think that would have been a little different but there's something, you know there's something fun about road tripping. Of course it's also fun if it's not much of a distance for you to drive at all like it is when it's basically in your backyard.

M: [laughs] Yeah.

Anne: But anyway yeah, I got a couple of other housekeeping notes to get out of the way too. I wanted to mention that Matt Bivins has offered to be a guest on an upcoming episode and I think I know what I'd like him to talk at least in part so we've got that penciled. You know I'm pretty sure we're going to let him be a guest. What do you think?

M: [laughs] I dunno.

A: hmm…

M: I dunno, maybe, maybe he needs to pass some sort of test.

A: Yeah, we could have an audition. [laughter] Yeah I mean it's only fair. [laughter]

M: Will he make the cut?

A: We're also going to have a transcript of the first episode up and and then later on the second one. I hope these...I hope I can try to be concise. I'm already seeming to fail at that right out of the gate but it has been interesting just even with one episode. And to sort of get into today's topic, the demographics! I didn't realize, I think it's Spotify has a demographic breakdown of the audience. And I laughed so hard when I saw it because it said, at the time when I first saw them, it said 85% of the audience was female and the age range, something like 3/4 of people were 35 to 44 range and the top city of the listeners was somewhere in South Carolina. And I thought wow, who'd've thought [laughter] this is just a total surprise from every possible standpoint. But also I noticed that last week there was a guy from Ireland listened so he skewed everything. So now the audience is only 78% female. [laughs]

M: Thanks Irish guy.

A: Yeah he just, you know, really messed up the trend but no, I think it's great that there is a male listener in Ireland. Hi whoever you are! [laughter] If you haven't given up and aren't listening to the second episode. But I think the reason that I wasn't real focused when I was talking I was before was cuz I was trying to include too many factors and one thing that I really, really love to talk about and what I want to start out with and try to keep this organized and I want to be briefed about all these but if anybody has any questions feel free to contact me and I will elaborate as best I can. Maybe in a future episode. But one of my favorite things as I've mentioned to you is Lisztomania, and I want to get like the most high level overview possible of what Lisztomania is cuz it's so funny to me. But Franz Liszt was a pianist and composer who first came to fame in the 1840s in Germany. And he was sort of a pioneer in a lot of things that we think about as typical piano concert performance tropes if you will. He was very much a showman. He introduced these concepts of, you know, showmanship, the way he played, his style, his personal style. There were just various quirks about him that were very different from what people have seen before, and we are talkin the 1840s. And he elicited a particular response in his audience and some of the, some of the writings about that are possibly apocryphal but I'm just going to sort of mention some of the legend here. There were apparently, the crowds were so enthusiastic that apparently women would fight over his handkerchiefs and his gloves, they would wear his portrait on brooches and cameos, they would get locks of his hair. If he broke a piano string they would make bracelets out of it. They would even, apparently, carry glass phials into which they poured is coffee dregs, and there was one woman apparently who took his cigar stump and made a necklace out of it. [laughter] So it's all stuff like that, that no one had ever really seen stuff like that happening before so it was basically thought of as a mental illness...not only a mental illness but a contagious one. So I find this, in retrospect I find this really funny but at the time of course when you called something a "mania" like Lisztomania you mean that it's literally a mental illness. While we think of The Beatles fans, Beatlemania, we just think of that more of a loose term, but they literally meant a mental illness and that's so funny to me because they did not have a context to explain why these audiences of mostly women, or mostly women were exhibiting this behavior, were acting like this so they immediately pathologize it and make it to a specific female problem which is just, I'm sorry but that's hilarious. So one other thing that's funny about it is they would basically ascribe it to sort of a moral or constitutional weakness specific to Germans in Northern Germany, which, as a descendent of people in Southern Germany, I think is very funny. Just sort of this idea that they weren't robust enough to withstand the wily ways of Franz Liszt! [laughter] And they were, they'd like brag about the fact that the Northern Germans weren't susceptible to this, which is also really hilarious. But this particular term was coined by guy who was sort of a wit who would write letters to publications. And he was describing this and that was the term that he used. His name is Heinrich Heine. And also in the same letter, I wanted to get to this which I also find very funny, he tries to explain what is it and what causes it. So of course in this letter he uses a lot of roundabout language and he never, because this is the 1800s, he doesn't quite come out and say what he means cuz you can't really...either because he can't really formulate what he's talking about or if it's just not permissible to say but I'll go ahead and read what he says in the letter trying to explain it. What is the reason of this phenomenon? The solution of this question belongs to the domain of pathology rather than that of aesthetics. A physician whose specialty is female diseases, and whom I asked to explain the magic our Liszt exerted upon the public, smiled in the strangest manner and at the same time said all sorts of things about magnetism, galvanism, electricity, of the contagion of the closed hall filled with countless wax lights and several hundred perfume and perspiring human beings, of historical epilepsy, of the phenomenon of tickling, of musical cantharides (and as aside, I don't know if I pronounced that correctly but cantharides basically refers to, oh gosh, aphrodisiacs made from beetles), and other scabrous things which I believe have reference to the mysteries of the bona dea (I'm also not sure if I pronounce bona dea correctly, but that's a reference to a Roman goddess of fertility! When I clicked on that and saw the reference I thought that was an absolute riot. Alright, the letter goes on...) Perhaps a solution of the question is not buried in such adventurous depths but floats on a very prosaic surface. It seems to me at times that all the sorcery may be explained by the fact that no one on earth knows so well had organised is successes, or rather their mise en scène, as our Franz Liszt. So he's basically saying that chicks thought Franz Liszt was hot and they wanted to bang him. [laughter] In a super, super roundabout way because there wasn't really a vocabulary for discussing that. And if you look at Franz Liszt he's got this really distinctive hairstyle, and these fabulous cheekbones. You can easily see how he could have really milked that for this charismatic, amazing guy. And that's apparently exactly what happened. So then of course we have, and please let me know if you want to add anything because I feel like I'm going on and on...that pretty much it?

M: yeah

A: Yeah. [laughter] Feel free to interrupt me but...so then we have of course almost, actually a full century later, we have the bobby-soxers and Frank Sinatra fans literally during World War II. There was something called the Columbus Day Riot, and you might think oh wow, that sounds like an actual riot. No! It was actually some concerts that took place in New York City in, late during the war where there were several performances by Frank Sinatra in a row. And tens of thousands of girls stayed for all of the concerts. They didn't leave their seat for hours and hours and hours and hours. You know, like they peed in the seats if they had. And if you see photos of this the girls could not be happier. [laughter] They're absolutely thrilled! It's like the best thing ever. But people are so rattled by this! They were like, oh my God we just don't know what to do about this, oh my God! So of course part of this, I'm sure, was instigated by or not...maybe amplified by Frank Sinatra's people. Because that is a factor with some of these things. It is somewhat P.R. you know, no making it like, wow! He's a total sensation! Look at this! And really using the media to establish this idea that this is sweeping the globe and this is just...they can't get enough! Etc., Etc. But to a certain extent that's based on what's really happening. You might say that sort of, it was all feeding itself but, you know, still. And there's a, now I want you to talk about [laughs] that bobby-soxer cartoon that's parodying the bobby-soxer stereotype.

M: Yes.

A: And let me see if I can remember the title. Is it... [crosstalk] swooner, Swooner Crooner, yeah.

M: Swooner Crooner!

A: And it was nominated for and Oscar.

M: But it lost to Tom & Jerry.

A: Yeah. [laughter] Bull crap! So let's talk about the premise of this cartoon.

M: So, Porky Pig has this egg farm and all of his hens...it's a it's a war propaganda...

A: yeah

M: ...short.

A: Yeah, pretty much, yeah. It's very much a wartime short.

M: So they're, he's having these hens lay eggs for the war effort.

A: Yeah.

M: And they get distracted by this rooster called Frankie [laughter] who is obviously a parody of Frank Sinatra [laughs]

A: A really good one too, might I add!

M: Yeah! And so, in an attempt to get his hens back on track he auditions these other roosters to I guess, I don't know, compete with Frankie, and...

A: Yeah, I'm not really clear on what exactly he auditions the others except that the animators wanted an excuse to draw some more caricatures.

M: Yeah.

A: I think that's probably what it was. Either that or he wanted to see if any of the roosters that auditioned could get the hens to lay more eggs.

M: yeah

A: I can't remember cuz I haven't seen it in like a week but they're, yeah so, basically he's trying to...because he's noticed, wait, never mind. I realize I got a, one of the critically important plot points wrong so carry on.

M: So he goes through these different roosters. And they're all parodies of, like there's an Al Jolson one and a Jimmy Durante one and...

A: Yeah, and a Cab Calloway [crosstalk]

M: Cab Calloway, and then finally he ends up with the...

A: There's a Bing Crosby....

M: Bing Crosby one that finally gets the hens back on track. But in the meantime you see all these hens reacting to Frankie and the Bing Crosby rooster in these hilarious...

A: metaphors [laughter]

M: And then laying mountains of eggs!

A: Yeah, like they hear a couple of notes and they watch the dudes sing and they're like shooting eggs out of themselves, it's absolutely a riot. [laughter] And it's more than this, just that, there's the one that sort of floats into the air and then back, back down to earth in a puddle.

M: Yeah

A: And they're, you know it's just...and they're all wearing their little bobby socks if you will on their on their chicken legs.

M: Yes, there are several cuts that very pointedly show the bobby socks.

A: Yes it's very...I was a big animation nerd and there's a lot of bobby-soxer references in cartoons around this time cuz it was really a cultural phenomenon and it's just such a funny cartoon cuz eventually somebody, I believe it was Frankie. Cuz Frankie gets mad that Bing is taking the attention so he sort of retaliates. And I think it's Frankie who gets Porky to lay eggs. [laughs]

M: Well I think, I think at the end they both...cuz he asks them...

A: They both.

M: ...how do you get them to lay those eggs

A: Oh, that's right!

M: And they both start singing. And [laughs] Porky Pig, is laying eggs.

A: We got a pig to lay eggs. [laughter] And it's just, it's just so funny and it's so weird but it's so outlandish but it's actually really accurate [laughter] It's, oh my god, it's too funny. So we go from the bobby-soxer to, roughly a generation later, Beatlemania! And I wanted to mention, I forgot to mention this earlier, but my mother recalled when she was in high school, so I'm thinking this was like 1964 or so, there was a girl in her Home Ec class who had a Beatles lunchbox and she would talk about The Beatles and she would just start silently crying like she would just sit there silently sobbing in the middle of class about The Beatles! And that image really stuck with me and you know the other day we were talking about, or I had just watched and I told you to watch this movie from 1978 called I Want to Hold Your Hand which is directed by Robert Zemeckis. It's a comedy that follows these four girls and I think it's two or three guys? It's three guys who are trying to see The Beatles at The Ed Sullivan Show right when they are you know really the hot new thing. And it's weird, you know it's like a goofy, screwball comedy in some ways but I swear, I cannot wait to get the Criterion Collection version of this cuz I want to see the behind-the-scenes on this, because I swear they really were talking to actual Beatles fans or actual fans in general because they really know their stuff. And never ridicules anybody even though it's very silly and there's some stuff in there that's just obviously touches of authenticity. And I don't want to ruin the plot, you know it's insofar as there is a plot, which there is. There's some really delightful surprises in this movie and I highly recommended it. It's just too funny. I particularly don't want to spoil Pam's plotline, but keep an eye on Pam! That's all I'm going to say.

M: She has one of the best arcs of the film. [laughs]

A: She really does [laughs] I just, I just love Pam! And you know from Beatlemania we sort of establish after that, although I think the Beatlemania is much more closely related to the bobby-soxers than what we see in the late 60s and 70s and into the 80s when we have what we really term groupies. Because 70s, late 60s and 70s fans were very different from early 60s Beatles fans, very different. And I think there is a tendency to group, if you will, group everyone together and call them all groupies. And I read a really interesting piece actually in a collection called The Adoring Audience: Fan Culture and Popular Media which is available on a PDF if you just search that title. And Cheryl Cline had a bit in there, let me find it...there's actually several great pieces in this. There's even one about Beatlemania, which I'm going to get to shortly. But when we're talking about this concept that all female fans are groupies, I realize that that is what people do without really thinking about it and there's no real discussion of it. And I don't want to really get into a discussion about groupies but I wanted to point out that in Cheryl Cline's essays in this collection she has, they're from 1986 and they're from Bitch: the Women's Rock Newsletter With Bite. The first one she talks about being an adult woman who likes David Lee Roth and how she's made to feel embarrassed about that. You know, it's seen as this terrible embarrassing thing, you know, she's an adult, she's not supposed to do this, you're not supposed to talk about it, etc., etc. She's talking about how men tend to attribute things to women and girls who have crushes on famous entertainers that I think is very much seen through a male lens. They'll project a lot basically, when it's really not that serious. And then in the second piece she has she talks about this tendency people have to label any woman related to the rock music industry at all, even though this is 1986 and I'm not sure this has changed that much, as a quote groupie. Cuz that's always what it means and there's always this assumption that that's why you're there and the assumption is you know we're literally there because we...you know [laughter] And it's, she's...she—I liked to, if she's still writing, I'd like to see her revisit this at some point. And right after that essay is the one about Beatlemania which is interesting because Beatlemania is also a social reaction or was also a social reaction because we're dealing with this particular context, at this point in history, with Baby Boomers who are rebelling and The Beatles were a form of rebellion because they you know had quote long hair. I know that seems very funny now to people but they were considered to have long hair and they looked super clean cut but that was a conscious choice to put them in these suits with long hair because previously they were basically greasers. You know when they were working in Germany they looked like leather greasers. Not unlike Elvis, so this was kind of a reaction to Elvis in some ways I think. But this essay which is by, let's see, Barbara Ehrenreich the famous author, Elizabeth Hess and Gloria Jacobs. They talk about the fact that at this point in time girls were expected to take a very strict path. They were expected to be wives and mothers. Maybe they go to school to find a husband but then you know it's wives and mothers. There's no room in there for joyful, pleasurable entertainment and I think that was a mass reaction by girls to just be like, no this is something we enjoy that's completely frivolous but we find pleasure in it, we enjoy it, and we have fun. We bond together in this enjoyment. So it's quite radical in that sense because if you look at Lisztomania and the bobby-soxers and Beatlemania none of those things have anything to do with becoming a wife and mother. [laughter] It's completely fun! And I think that's part of why it's spoken of in derogative[sic] terms like, this is madness. these girls are acting crazy. They're mindless masses who are not doing what they're supposed to do. They're finding fun in these ridiculous, stupid thing and my argument basically is when the world is trying to push you down a narrow path where you're not supposed to enjoy these things, let alone with groups of others, that's going to be your reaction. You know, I want to do this, I want to have fun, I have the free time, I have the disposable income to enjoy this! And that's what I think we see with Jump fans also. Now in modern times basically when we look at stuff like this we see boy bands. Probably for the past 20 years I'd say the stand out has been boy bands and there was a great essay that I shared the other day. It was kind of really an article about a documentary called I Used to be Normal, which is an Australian documentary about fans of boy bands and it's by Anwen Crawford. It's in the Australian Monthly and I highly recommend this piece. There are some great lines in this. God, I don't, I don't even know where to start. She first describes a girl in the audience. You know we often see these pictures of girls screaming. Their faces are contorted, they look you know beyond joyful. Like my Facebook header is a group of Beatles fans with a wide range of expressions [laughter] and this outpouring of emotion is sort of, it's sort of frightening to people. And as Anwen puts it here, "consider the girl fan and how easy it is to disparage her. She consumes, as we are all obliged to, girls especially, consumer self-hood being what makes a girl acceptably girlish, but too much! She forgets how to regulate her feelings, her appetites; worse, she willfully abandons her self regulation of these things. She becomes undisciplined, she lets herself go. Her consumption of pop music opens up a maw of feeling that, in turn, threatens to consume her and finally horror of horrors, is poised to annihilate the music's very makers. Who drove the Beatles off stage? Oh, we all know who: it was the girls. It is an old, old fear, this one, of the male artist consumed in the most violent way by female enthusiasts. It's Orpheus torn to shreds by the maenads, his severed head floating in the Hebrus. The danger for artists, for geniuses is woman, wrote Nietzsche in reference to the work of the composer Richard Wagner, his popular contemporary. Adoring women confront them with corruption. The love of girls drags men from the rarefied heights of artistic creation down into the muck of feminine feeling. Directioners own them in a certain way observes Elif of the dynamic that exists between fans of One Direction and the band. They, the band members, just don't know it. But they do! The risk and the sublimity of worship being a chief reason why a certain kind of young man pursues a kind of musical ambition in the first place even if they later deny it." There's a lot of unpack there! [laughter] I don't even want to get into that! But it's a great essay. Let's see, she talks also about Lisztomania in this. Well, it's not really an essay. It's a piece, but you know, whatever. I desperately want to see this documentary so I can't wait for it to come out here. I think it's going to be on Netflix in a couple of months.

M: Oh I hope so.

A: Yeah it's going to be great but yeah, here's something I like here. "The phantom of girls and women has driven every superstar phenomenon in pop music from 1940s Sinatra-mania and on. The scandal is just how often that fandom has been disavowed. On the one hand if girls like it it's probably bad, silly music for shallow minds; but on those occasions where the music itself cannot be so easily dismissed as with The Beatles then it must be the case that the girls don't get it. Not really. Their fandom rather than the music becomes the problem. They are fans in the wrong way."

M: [laughs] We can't do anything right!

A: We can't do anything right!

M: Either way we're wrong. [laughs]

A: Like I said in the first recording, we're ruining things with our vaginas. [laughter] I wanted to call the episode that and I thought that's going to get some weird search results. [laughter] The search results will be not exactly what we're working for here! And then someone says, from the documentary says, "I've made enemies, mostly men I guess who don't want to think the Beatles are a boy band and with the distance of time and their full catalog, of course they evolved to be something else but it's teenage girls who were driving their career largely, who were laughed at for liking this repetitive, cheesy pop music about wanting to hold your hand. The disavowal of female fandom can run so deep that it shapes the very artifacts made for these fans to consume in the first place," and then it talks about an episode of The Monkees TV show. It goes on for too long. That bit goes on to long for me to say. "Girl fans are bad and wrong, it is assumed, because they don't know how to listen. Not in the discriminating temperate, knowledgeable way other listeners, male listeners, know how to listen. Instead they lust. They look in the gaze of enumerable girls upon the pretty faces of their boy band idols is a kind of embarrassment, both to the idol and to the world. See how I use the word ‘pretty' there without even thinking why? The male musician is made girly by girls and who would want to be made into a girl if you don't already have to be one?" And then what's really funny to me is she makes an aside about the Sex Pistols being a boy band [laughter]

M: Well they were!

A: They were assembled by that...

M: They were very manufactured.

A: They were, yes absolutely. And I just love it. "A great part of the scorn directed at girl fans stems from the notion that they are credulous. Few stop to consider the possibility that girls know they're being sold and sold to." Now that's more specific to prefab bands like the Sex Pistols. [laughter] It's just great, I could probably read the whole thing. Gosh, yeah it's amazing. Yeah so I highly recommend it. But sort of turning from that to Jump, I'm not saying that you know, they're deliberately selling things to girls or anything like that but—and I don't actually want to cuz I realize one reason why I was going so off track the first time I tried to talk about this was because I was trying to focus on why there were so many girls, girl fans. And I thought I'm going to leave that as an exercise for the reader. I'm not going to get into that. And I'm also not going to get into why women do this because I think it's more useful just to examine the reaction to that in the cultural context rather than why because I don't have an explanation as to why. But I do think it's interesting so many people said that in college they were introduced to the band by their female friends or roommates. I happened to sort of randomly stumble across them at a festival in 1998. I didn't know any fans at the time. It took me awhile to meet them and now, you know, actually very soon after I became a fan I just assumed most of the fans were, were girls and Amanda, Jennifer, Sarahs, and Megans. You know that's pretty much everybody. And I came to, because some experience online was Jump related, I came to assume that most people on the internet were women sort of without really thinking about it. [laughter] And this might make you laugh, I thought the other day we sort of think of true fans as being men, you know when we talk about cultural artifacts, you know, men are the "real" fans. But I think, well, you know what? I can make a case that men can't really be true fans of Jump, Little Children. [laughter] You might want to cut that out but it's still really funny to me. But you know I don't know if I know how you came to be a fan. I know you were af—some years after me, but I don't know what that story was for you.

M: Well I had a friend that—who is a woman[laughs]

A: [laughs] Wow!

M: And she, she said, "Melanie I saw this band and you're going to love them and they're coming to Greenville and you're coming and we're going!" [laughs]

A: Yeah, that's very typical to what I hear.

M: I really had no say in the matter [laughter] but I went along cuz I love music and I'm always on the lookout for new music and, and I love going to concerts. So I went and then, sorry to say, I wasn't very into them the first time I saw them and I don't know why?

A: Yeah.

M: And [laughs] it took a few times seeing them before it finally clicked.

A: Yeah.

M: And now I've seen them over 100 times, so!

A: It evidently worked out. Now, I remember you said on our practice call that you thought of Jump concerts, because there's so many women, particularly women that we usually know, that you think of them is basically a safe space.

M: Yeah, that's something I noticed early on was—cuz I would always try to get as close as possible to the stage.

A: Yeah!

M: Because I just I just like being that close to bands!

A: Yes! And I'd like to thank you again for getting us right in front of Neko Case that one time at the 40 Watt.

M: Oh yeah! Yeah, yeah, yeah! But I can't remember where I was going with…

A: Yeah, yeah, you were talking about being right in front.

M: Oh yes! Right in front! And I noticed that a lot of the people who are right in front were women!

A: Yeah! I'll say!

M: And this something that I hadn't experienced at shows before because it's usually, there's usually a whole bunch of guys up front and you know they'll, they'll start talking to me and ask like how I got in—like very sort of like, well how do you know this band? Are you a real fan? What was, what was your favorite album? There was none of that at Jump shows. It was just everyone's there to have fun. I didn't feel this pressure to be like—know everything about them type of fan although you know, it's kinda my thing. I get into a band and I try to find out everything about them. But…

A: Well we sort of joke sometimes about it's the male Jump fans who'll know the the technical ins and outs but to an extent that kind of is true. [laughter] It's not completely true, you know, I don't want to stereotype—sometimes when it comes to the boring technical crap [laughs] stuff like that, but that's, you know, just an aside. But it's true though. You've been to a lot wider range of concerts than I have and because, as I told Jay once, I basically just go to Jump shows because I don't really want to—I don't go to shows that you know, I don't! [laughs] There's not a lot of bands I would go to the trouble of going to see because I'm sort of an introvert. I'm a homebody. It's a lot of effort for me to go see somebody so unless they're totally an epic legend and I really you know, this is like a one time only thing then I'll try to do it but I'm not someone who's going to casually go to a show just because I like a venue or because whatever, I just like doing that. For one a lot of shows are really loud! Super, super, super loud and I don't like that. I don't find that pleasurable even with even with ear plugs I don't, I just don't enjoy that. And that's one great thing about Jump. I think I mentioned the last episode they don't really do that. They keep their volume at a really good level. I don't necessarily even have to wear ear plugs at all at their shows. I mean, maybe I should be but I typically don't. But that's part of it and part of it is you know many of the people around you or you will soon. I mean I assume that I'm immediately going to be friends with, with people I meet a Jump shows. Sometimes I am and sometimes I come on a little too strong, I think, which is kind of funny because I'm usually very quiet, reserved person but not really at Jump shows so I apologize to anyone I may have come on too enthusiastically to. Not in the "hitting on" sense but just in the, "Hi. This is my personality!" sense. [laughter] But, yeah, I think it sort of perpetuates itself because once you feel comfortable somewhere you bring other people with you and then you all feel comfortable and you're all in a group bonding and then you all have your in-jokes and it sort of grows from there. And I think the band has always been kind of baffled by the fan community in a way because I've gotten every indication that they are because of some of the things Matt has said over the years. He's sort of like, wow, okay I guess this is happening! [laughter] I'd like to talk to him about that too. But yeah, I mean we still...we still, even you know 20 however many years later even when we've got people who are married with kids or whatever whatever, we still very much have this bonded group and it is a lot like these former phenomenon. And you do see people writing about Jump fans or Jump shows, and you have seen in the past and you know, the ubiquitous presence of the screaming girls. It's a thing that gets noted in show reviews and I, you know, I can't really blame people for noting that but it feels very reductive and it feels like a kind of ridicule.

M: Yeah, yeah.

A: And while it's true you will occasionally have randos who show up and shove their way to the front of the crowd in the middle of the show and scream cuz they're drunk and then they leave cuz, you know, they're not really supposed to be there. I don't think you can take that as representative of all the Jump fans.

M: No.

A: Those are just like randos and just because it happens at every show [laughter] doesn't really mean anything! In closing once again I want to mention that Matt's going to be on an upcoming episode if we let him, you know probably. But we're also going to have an episode that's completely about Jump Girls and if you're not familiar with that concept you're gonna be after the next episode, which I think is going to be really really fun cuz that's part of the meat and potatoes of what this fandom is about for me. I want to reiterate that's not for everybody, but it is for me! And I think that's going to be really fun discussion. Are we supposed to tell people to "like and subscribe"?

M: Like and subscribe!

A: Yeah! Or whatever.

M: We have all the social media! Except we don't have a Facebook page but we have an Instagram.

A: Oh that's right, we don't. Yeah.

M: We have an Instagram. We have...don't we have a Twitter?

A: Yeah!

M: We have a Twitter...

A: I haven't done much with it but, yeah.

M: We have an email. [laughs]

A: Right, it's justasecondpodcast (at) gmail.com so if you have any comments about what we should have...although we have a document where we've listed all our topics and some of them are less serious than others. But we're hosted on Soundcloud and we're available on iTunes and Spotify. And I don't know, I think that really about wraps it up I think.

[Throwing Muses "Snakeface" begins to play and fades out]